Lawful use of deadly force

[sksshooter]

If a person puts his hands on another in a violent nature he should not be supprised at what he gets.In most fights today it is not with both partys wanting to fight like a boxing match.Its usualy with the instegator thinking he is gonna win.

ive seen plenty of fights ive been in plenty of fights all when i was younger in school and shortly after im 25 now and avoid fighting (i dont like to get hit) but i still dont see shooting someone instead of fighting them.

 

[#1bambam]

ive seen plenty of fights ive been in plenty of fights all when i was younger in school and shortly after im 25 now and avoid fighting (i dont like to get hit) but i still dont see shooting someone instead of fighting them.

Have you ever seen or known anyone who died from a friendly fistfight?I have and he was just as dead as if he was shot in the head.

 

[Morgan Allison]

size means zero when it comes to fighting so yeah i say that nomatter the size you are not in immenent danger in a fight.

Actually, you are saying just the opposite. If a guy half my size is capable of "whipping my ass," and "size means zero," then no matter the size you ARE in imminent danger. You say you've been in a lot of fights. I haven't but I've seen the results of a lot of unarmed fights which included permanent eye damage, permanent brain damage, broken ribs, broken bones, lacerated faces, and lost teeth. I've seen them as an EMT and as a lawyer. I've had a client get two years and a felony conviction because he was involved in a "fistfight" that resulted in a guy being crippled for life by serious brain damage. All he did was throw one punch.

if your first instinct is to grab your gun for every little disagreement then in my opinion that person doesnt need a gun.

What world do you live in that you think "every little disagreement" means you should have a fist fight?! If you want to persuade me, try using Reason. My being armed means that force is off the table.

note to self never fight the people in this thread just pull gun and shoot.

So, if there is a "little disagreement" and the other person is armed and won't allow themselves to get beat up by you over it, you should just kill them?

 

[sksshooter]

So, if there is a "little disagreement" and the other person is armed and won't allow themselves to get beat up by you over it, you should just kill them?

i didnt say person i said the people in this thread because obviously if we had a disagreement that led to a fight you would shoot me so i was being sarcastic and saying note to self never fight the people in this thread just pull gun and shoot.

 

[posse comatosis]

You folks who are so comfortable with fighting, are you depending on the referees to keep it clean? A guy who thinks it's just a fight is often fatally mistaken.

 

[scooterj]

ive seen plenty of fights ive been in plenty of fights all when i was younger in school and shortly after im 25 now and avoid fighting (i dont like to get hit) but i still dont see shooting someone instead of fighting them.

It's all about common sense. I'll run away, screaming like a lil biotch, if that's all it takes. If I don't have anywhere to go, you'll meet my little friend.

 

[CEHollier]

You're missing a vital part of what several people have said here. Feeling threatened isn't enough.

A homicide is justifiable: When committed in self-defense by one who reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of losing his life or receiving great bodily harm and that the killing is necessary to save himself from that danger. http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78338

Thank you. De-escelation or digression should be the first course of action. If they persue you they are the aggressor. If you have pulled a gun and they continue shame on them.

 

[spanky]

OK, had the crawfish boil over here yesterday, buddy of ours was over here, he has his CHP.

We started talking abot HB27, and he went on a bit about a shooting he was involved in, attempted robbery with a weapon, he drew on the BG, shot him in the leg, cops took the report, sent him on his way, justifiable shooting.

BG was charged with an aggrivated crime, now, here is the kicker, it was with an airsoft gun. I completely agree with him being charged as if he had an actual firearm, he is trying to give off the impression that he is armed and capable....

Anyways, this kinda got me thinking.

If I am armed, and am assaulted/threatened by a BG, if he comes over and kicks my ass, it is quite possible that he will then be armed, taking my firearm, and could then use it against me, ending my life.

So, if you are armed, and attacked, would it not be reasonable to assume that if you lose the fight, you will lose your firearm and it can be used against you, so shooting the BG at the onset, even an unarmed BG, would have been in the interest of preventing a serious threat on your life?

That's where that whole "training" thing comes into play.

 

[hot shot]

Bunch of trigger happy people in here. So the kid that brought the gun to Southeast Middle School was right. He though he may get his ass whooped, so he "protected" himself. Shooting someone over a fist fight MOST of the time is completely unreasonable. I dont like getting my ass whipped, I dont even like to fight anymore. Even if you "win" youre still sore as hell afterwards. If I have no choice Ill fight, but only with no other options. For me, pulling my gun to eliminate that option, has never crossed my mind. Hell, I wish it would have when my ex-wife attacked me, and her husband being there and a 2nd degree blackbelt. Guess I could have shot them both dead in that McDonalds parking lot, because of the fear of bodily harm I may recieve would have justified it???

Her husband spent a few days in the hospital because he cant control his wife, and when I tried to stop the attack he interviened. It was a bad situation, but defiantly NOT worth someones life.

I think its sad so many people here are willing to take a life to avoid an ass whipping. Hell, I say take the ass whipping then sue in civil court. Maybe you wont ever have to work again. Sure beats the hell out of killing someone, and possibly doing time when a judge finds you guilty of using excessive force. Sucks even worse when the guys wife sues the **** out of you for taking her husbands life as well as her kids fathers life!!!

 

[Morgan Allison]

i didnt say person i said the people in this thread because obviously if we had a disagreement that led to a fight you would shoot me

A disagreement that leads to a fight? As I said, you seem to think that's the way disagreements should go.

And, yes, there is a good chance I would shoot you if you attacked me. But, how about, instead of trying to settle your differences with your fists, or shooting me because I'm armed and won't let punch me, you find some other way to deal with your issues?

 

[spanky]

I suck at fighting, so if a bad guy was going to attack me I would fear for my life. In that split second you have the choice between living or not, it would be impossible to identify if BG had a weopon concealed. I am not a lawyer but it would only seem right if you felt someone was going to cause you harm that you would have the right to mitigate that harm.

So you're going to shoot someone if you get into a fist fight because he might have a weapon?

And let me ask you this. If you're in a fist fight what makes you think you can actually get to and use your gun?

 

[W1nds0rF0x]

Bunch of trigger happy people in here. So the kid that brought the gun to Southeast Middle School was right.

You are derailed right here, because it was illegal for him to carry that gun, conceal it, and to have it on the school campus. Try again.

So you're going to shoot someone if you get into a fist fight because he might have a weapon?

And let me ask you this. If you're in a fist fight what makes you think you can actually get to and use your gun?

Personally *I* refuse to get into a fist fight. Keep coming at me and he's going to get a face full of Fox...

 

[Morgan Allison]

I think its sad so many people here are willing to take a life to avoid an ass whipping.

And I think it's sad someone is willing to get shot just to get a hit at me. But, some people are insane, and I guess it can't be helped.

 

[W1nds0rF0x]

And I think it's sad someone is willing to get shot just to get a hit at me. But, some people are insane, and I guess it can't be helped.

+1

Keep your filthy paws off of me. You might have AIDS. Or pig flu, or something...

 

[Gumbo]

These hypothetical questions never work because there are too many variables to a justifiable shooting and too many ways to interpret those variables. I may not feel as threatened by a particular aggressor as you might.

Out of all the conditions required for a justifiable shooting, there are two where I am going to shoot you, legal or not.

1) If I feel my life is in danger from an aggressor, I'm going to draw on you. If you see my weapon, and continue approaching me in an aggressive manner anyway, I'm putting you down.
2) If I catch you in my home and you're up to no good, I'm putting you down. If I know you have malicious intent, there are too many unknowns for me to give you due process, especially when my infant daughter is in the house.

Otherwise, the simple fact of the matter is, by carrying concealed in public, you're accepting the fact that you may be put into a situation where there's a lot of grey and its up to you to analyze the situation on the fly to the best of your ability and act accordingly.

 

[sksshooter]

A disagreement that leads to a fight? As I said, you seem to think that's the way disagreements should go.

you can put the words in my mouth that every disagreement turns to a fight thats fine. obvousily if there is a fight there was a disagreement of some kind before hand

And, yes, there is a good chance I would shoot you if you attacked me. But, how about, instead of trying to settle your differences with your fists, or shooting me because I'm armed and won't let punch me, you find some other way to deal with your issues?

did i say i wanted to fight you? did i say i wanted to shoot you? did i say i have any issues? once again i will say the original qoute was sarcasm maybe they didn't teach you that in law school but if you hang out on the interwebz long enough you can learn it. either way i disagree with the way you/others think of what is justifiable to use your gun for.

 

[spanky]

Otherwise, the simple fact of the matter is, by carrying concealed in public, you're accepting the fact that you may be put into a situation where there's a lot of grey and its up to you to analyze the situation on the fly to the worst of your ability and act accordingly.

Fixed.

 

[I Love Grits]

Read Edit at bottom:

Not taking sides here, BUT how old and what is the physical capabilities of the two ??

What is being said, " I'm gonna jerk you outta that wheelchair and kill you old man ?? "

More goes into the DF justification than weapons

AND, in Loooziana if you are justifiable under RS you don't go to civil......where did U take class ??

For my analogy does it matter what size the kids are? Let's say they are two 15 year old boxers who have never lost a match....the details are irrelevant. I was simply saying the person that ESCALATES the situation will be thought of in a negative way. If someone wants to fight you, have other options than your gun i.e. pepper spray , if you are incapable of de-escalation or running away. If you try and exhaust every single option other than pulling your gun out at first, a jury will be more likely to agree with you and not label you as being someone who carries a gun just to get the chance to shoot someone.

"What is being said, " I'm gonna jerk you outta that wheelchair and kill you old man ?? " I am not an old man. If I was in a wheelchair, and someone said that to me, then yes I would draw. "I'm going to kill you" is a lot different from " I am going to kick your ass".

Please show me the law that states you are exempt from civil law suites if you are not in your car or in your home and you kill someone, regardless of if you are cleared criminally.

^^^ see that doesn't make sense to me. what your telling me is anytime i feel threatend i have the right to pull a gun on someone. so when my boss walks up to me on friday and i feel i could get fired i should pull a gun on him? i feel threatend. if i walk away from him and he continues to follow me i should shoot him? hes aggressivly trying to take something away from me. i just dont agree with your opinion. i dont see the need for a weapon/firearm until someone else brings one to the table. are you at a disadvantage by pulling your weapon second probably but isnt that why you should train and become proficient with your weapon?

You and I are in complete agreement.

You folks who are so comfortable with fighting, are you depending on the referees to keep it clean? A guy who thinks it's just a fight is often fatally mistaken.

Who says you have to fight at all? This blows my mind that so many people think they are just THRUST into a situation. As if they could not do anything to prevent being there in the first place.

You think someone is going to randomly pick you out at wal mart and say I'm gonna kick your ass? The majority of fights could have never taken place if someone was the "lesser" man and chose to walk away and avoid things all together.

Thank you. De-escelation or digression should be the first course of action. If they persue you they are the aggressor. If you have pulled a gun and they continue shame on them.

Agreed 100%

You are derailed right here, because it was illegal for him to carry that gun, conceal it, and to have it on the school campus. Try again.

Same principal though. According to the news report he brought the gun because of a previous fist fight. In your logic because you can legally carry a concealed weapon where you are, and decide to shoot someone over a fist fight, you are different from him?

These hypothetical questions never work because there are too many variables to a justifiable shooting and too many ways to interpret those variables. I may not feel as threatened by a particular aggressor as you might.

Out of all the conditions required for a justifiable shooting, there are two where I am going to shoot you, legal or not.

1) If I feel my life is in danger from an aggressor, I'm going to draw on you. If you see my weapon, and continue approaching me in an aggressive manner anyway, I'm putting you down.
2) If I catch you in my home and you're up to no good, I'm putting you down. If I know you have malicious intent, there are too many unknowns for me to give you due process, especially when my infant daughter is in the house.

Otherwise, the simple fact of the matter is, by carrying concealed in public, you're accepting the fact that you may be put into a situation where there's a lot of grey and its up to you to analyze the situation on the fly to the best of your ability and act accordingly.

I couldn't agree more.


EDIT: I realize I may sound hypocritical, so let me try to clarify my stance right here.

I believe in "opportunity, ability, and intent". Someone saying they want to "kick my ass" and approach me does not give me the right to draw my weapon and SHOOT them. If de-escalation doesn't work, and backing away - I will use pepper spray (if I have it on me). If that does not stop him, I would draw my weapon and order him to stop. If he still does not stop then yes I will shoot.

By the way the same applies if someone says "I am going to kill you".

I will exhaust every option possible BEFORE drawing my weapon (even if that means turning and running away) because odds are there will be witnesses. And you will need every single one of them to be in agreeance that the last thing you wanted to do was shoot this person.

You carry a weapon to defend yourself from great bodily harm, or death .... nothing else. You use that weapon to stop an attack...nothing else. In my mind life is a very precious thing, and I am only ok with taking it if it means saving another. If running away avoids the situation - I will run. If pepper spray makes him not be able to see, then I have won. If drawing my weapon makes him turn, then I have won. If none of those work, then I will shoot him. But not until I know its the last option.

If you don't see things that way, hopefully you will reconsider your outlook on things. I am not made of money, and with civil law suits being able to reach 60k dollars just to prove your innocence, you won't find me killing someone just because they said " they are going to kick my ass".

 

[Yrdawg]

Not personal, don't take it that way

So, if there is a "little disagreement" and the other person is armed and won't allow themselves to get beat up by you over it, you should just kill them?

i didnt say person i said the people in this thread because obviously if we had a disagreement that led to a fight you would shoot me so i was being sarcastic and saying note to self never fight the people in this thread just pull gun and shoot.

Now then young feller, hope you don't take this personal

I think what the problem is , is that you have not received an ass whippin from an old man that that knows how to give one

Me, I ain't gonna deliver no ass whoppin unless you need it, like messin with my family, or kickin one of my dawgs, ( same thing purdy much )

BUT, if and when this old feller gives an ass whoppin it will dam sure take DF to stop it, see, you are apart from others here cause you have an apparent lack of ass whippins to see that they can quickly turn DF on ya

Thinkin that you can answer the call to go out in the parkin lot and settle things then go back to the pool game .....well, that ended long time ago, back when I did it.

Ass whippin ain't what it used to be, a gentlemans sport, now, its most times, a set up to do yer naive ass in.

So anyway, hope you don't take this personal, age and time will be a great educator and I'm sure you'll do fine

 

[sksshooter]

i love grits you said what i was thinking but i didnt translate it nearly as well.

yrdawg you may very well be telling the truth its probably been 10years since the last time i was in a fight and no ive never fought with my elders. i am pretty hot headed but now i have a motgage and other bills that wont pay themselves if im arrested and cant work. ive learned to just ignore the bs and go on my way todate ive not had anyone hassle my wife and now i have 2 young daughters that i have not had to defend either. maybe in a few years when they are older and make friends and go do more things ill have a different outlook but i cant see changing my mind on the thought of shooting someone being last resort. threaten my family, come in my house, is one thing but just cause me and someone else has a disagreement and it escalates to a fight i just dont see the use of a gun necessary.