LEO input please.....

[rebelray84]

Ok I'm gonna throw a couple of more things out there and then I'm done with this thread.

I have been in two situations in my life where police officers have pointed guns at me,once before I was a cop and once after.On both occasions I had done absolutely nothing illegal.What did I do when confronted with police officers who had there guns drawn on me?I did EXACTLY what they told me to do!Were they justified in doing what they did even thou I had done nothing illegal?After finding out the reason why they drew down me YES they were.Did I enjoy the experience?HELL NO!Nobody likes having guns pointed at them,legally or not.Did I get pissed about it?NOPE,these guys were doing their joba and I'm glad I was wise enough to follow their instructions and live to hear the reasons why later!

Police work is a dangerous business,doesn't matter if your in the largest city in the world or the smallest,it's dangerous.A lot of people carry weapons(and rightfully so) on them for fear someone may do themselves or their loved ones bodily harm.How would like to do a job for 8-16 hours a day were you know for a fact there are people out there who want to do you bodily harm?And,please,don't throw the "well you knew what the job was when you took it" crap.Yes I did but it doesn't change the fact and someone has to do it.(see below-anarchy!)

We are blessed to be in a very free society but there are some limits on those freedoms.We have the right to free speech yet you can't scream "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.The 2nd amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms but not with total freedom to do so.Total freedom is anarchy and we cannot have a civilized society if there is anarchy.Exercise your rights using common sense.

 

[LACamper]

I guess my complaint is in the response of the OC forum members. A majority of their responses were for him to sue the STPSO for money. Is OC about making their members better off financially or is it about guaranteeing rights? If its about rights then sue to have the department provide a training class on OC rights, not a cash settlement! On what grounds are you asking for cash? You had a gun pointed at you by the police so you're mentally traumatized? That would be hard to prove since the OP is a forum member and has knowledge of various other similar LEO encounters. It sounds like the LEO acted within department guidelines (from the story he may have over-reacted a little bit- opening his holster and hand on should have been enough- but we don't have both sides of the story, and who am I to judge...).
As I said, if the OC group's goal is to gain acceptance of OCing then suing police departments for cash is not the answer. It will only create animosity, and give the OC crowd a negative image. Again, they should offer to avoid a lawsuit by being allowed to give a presentation and materials to local PD's to avoid these situations.

 

[ATSOFLA]

As a cop I agree with NOLACOP 100%.

Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you encounter.


As a former member of the Jack Strain JBT Club I can say there is a high level of ignorance as to the firearms laws in Louisiana. Not just OC, but also CCW, and Vehicle possession issues. This is a training issue, no more, no less. Deputies are not walking the streets looking to take guns away from law abiding citizens, they just have no real comprehention of the law. Kind of like me with spelling. Most LEOs are not gun guys, so they don't know the ins and outs of OC, CCW, and all. Most only carry at work and thats it.

At the end of the day though, the officer has the ultimate right of way when it comes to ensureing his safety and that of others in the area. If that means he wants to disarm you, very well, you'll get over it, and if not, at least the LEO was able to conduct his stop in a safe manner.

You have to remember, as NOLACOP said, good people have bad days. Ultimately as a LEO, I don't know you from Adam, so I take every precaution to be safe in dealing with you untill I deam you are not a threat. If you are offended by that, you need to grow up and take a look around at the world we live in.

And as for the OC kid finding a resolution, Good luck. Jack don't care, so unless you have an army of lawyers and an unlimited legal budget, or can get the local media, GOA, NRA and the ACLU on his ass, your pissing up a rope. Sorry you got your fealing hurt, but it is what it is.

 

[ATSOFLA]

I've had to at least twice, one of whom had managed to kick me in the head when we were trying to get him up off of the floor. Handcuffs don't automatically end resistance/violence. That's why the word "GENERALLY" is used.



The sweetest, most wholesome looking, blue-haired, grandmotherly old ladies you can imagine will lie like Bill Clinton over a red light violation. They may be the most honest, righteous person in all other respects, but when you catch them breaking a minor law they revert to being a four year old caught with crumbs on his cheeks and an empty cookie jar.


As for the original posted incident: It's a one side story. When telling their own side of a story, no one ever says they were rude, snide, antagonizing, loud, fidgety, nervous, "shifty", "hinky", disrespectful, furtive, and they never recall things THEY said that were wrong that might correspond to what the other party said that sounds wrong. I had a drunk girl one night who told me at least a dozen times "I don't mean no disrespect, officer" as she stood before me wearing a memorial shirt for a guy who had been recently shot and killed by one of our SWAT officers that said, in nice, big, clear letters - "Fu@k the Police!" If she had complained after the interaction, she certainly would have been declaring "I didn't mean any disrespect, I even told the officer that, and I was just talking to him about the incident," without adding "Oh, yeah, and I was wearing a shirt that said 'Fu@k the Police!'" Who can say in this instance? No one here on this board, because we weren't there and the other side isn't presented.

As for what I would do: Depends on the circumstances. I can't recall having an OC encounter on the street in the 11 years I've been working in Slidell. If someone's walking into a business, or out to their car, or along the sidewalk with their dog, or even to the school bus stop with their kid, and has a holstered pistol, barring observation of anything else besides the mere presence of a weapon, I'd probably keep driving and give a head nod if they made eye contact. Perfectly legal and not suspicious. If they are aimlessly wandering a parking lot, arguing with someone, loitering behind or at the side of the gas station, or sitting staring off into space while mumbling to themselves, my response will be different.

No two situations, be it domestic violence incidents, traffic stops, terry stops, noise complaints, open container violations, jaywalking, whatever, are ever the same, even if it's the same officer responding to the same location with the same involved individuals. Yet somehow, people think that there has to be some magical "one way" in which police are "duty bound" to respond, some "doesn't he have to do this first" or "can he do that if I haven't even said this" formula. Life is dynamic, chaotic, and despite the best use of our instincts, totally unpredictable. That's why neighbors always describe serial killers as "quiet guys" that they never expected to do anything like they get caught for. The best you can do, and this includes police officers, is be alert, observant, and prepared to act.

Would I have had my gun out? If we were to assume the facts as posted, no, but as I engaged the guy in conversation my back-up officer would have certainly had his hand on his with retention devices already defeated, or maybe even had it out and down alongside his thigh. Action beats reaction, so one of us would have been a step above this guy. One of us might have gone into the store to observe while the other waited outside to the side of the door/windows, and approached him on exit if he didn't start stickin' up the place. There's any number of ways.

What it comes down to, in answer to "What would you do in a situation like this?": The best I can given the immediate circumstances. There is no one formulaic answer. There is no perfect order. There is no "textbook" call.

+1

and Congrats on the new COP. I had the honor of working for Randy Smith for a few months back in 06 in Dist 2, hell of a guy.

 

[GunAddict]

The 2nd amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms but not with total freedom to do so.Total freedom is anarchy and we cannot have a civilized society if there is anarchy.Exercise your rights using common sense.

Point to me where the second amendment has any restrictions upon it. It does not. At least except until:
All was clear with it until 1934, 1968, and 1994. That is when the problem really started. In all three times, it was infringed by a democratic president with a democratic attorney general and a democratically controlled congress. The first time the attorney general wanted to ban guns outright but could not do so because of the second amendment. Not a political statement, just a fact.

Now fast forward to today, it is not clear to all law enforcement that oc is legal(lack of training/education, we all know that), I think all here do, and there are those that know it and hate it. I don't oc, but that right is still there. If the guys story is correct, I do not feel they had the right to draw. What Kraut posted is a perfect example. Feel free to strike up a conversation if you feel the need, but don't treat a person like a criminal. If you feel that all people openly carrying a holstered weapon needs to be drawn down upon, maybe you need a different career. I used to oc during hunting season when a teen and never got a second look. Think about this: this is just a thought, or example.

Customer open carries into store, leo draws down on customer, for some unknown reason. Now does Leo have finger on trigger or to the side? I would think on the trigger, ready to fire.
Leo may be tired from working 12-16 hours or has had lack of sleep or any numerous things occur that day. He may be a little on edge from that or too much coffee or the adrenalin has kicked in which makes for a little nervousness.
About that time a vehicle pulls in/out with a loud backfire which sounds like a gunshot. Remember, no one is infallible and the Leo accidentally squeezes the trigger, along with the backfire, and kills the innocent customer. Which should not have been drawn on in the first place since there was no indication they were about to break the law. Follow where I am going? Now we have an accidental homicide. You can't say it could not happen. Leo goes home to family and there may be fatherless children and widow left to fend for themselves. Is the Leo protected by his job from prosecution or is he treated the same as would a non Leo? Would it bother you at all to know you killed an innocent person?? This is not to bash, because the same thing can happen if a non leo holds a gun on a burglar in your own home. The prosecutor will try to convict if he can.
This is just ramblings by an old fart, but it is something to think about when a gun is pointed at you or when you point at someone.

A thug or wannabe thug is not likely(I didn't say impossible) to be sporting a blackhawk serpa or any other type of holster on his side out in the open but in a hoodie/jacket or pocket, so what are the odds that a person wearing that serpa needs to be drawn on??
Most articles in print and paper I have read/watched, a crazed loonie that goes shooting up a place usually walks in from outside carrying their gun or pulls it out of a pocket. Even store robberies I've seen taped did not have a holster on their side. It was either concealed or they walked in with it in hand.

I am always watching all around me and wondering "what if". It keeps the mind working and alert. Most all here are on the same side, even those on the oc site. Either way, those on oc(most) just want to carry without confrontation like the poster claimed to have happen. But I did not like the response that IA sent back to him nor the response he got from Jack. Telling a 19 year old to get a permit, now who's blowing someone off??

Ohh, the op stated later on that they did not take his bullet, he found it on his floor board.

 

[spanky]

We are blessed to be in a very free society but there are some limits on those freedoms.We have the right to free speech yet you can't scream "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.The 2nd amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms but not with total freedom to do so.Total freedom is anarchy and we cannot have a civilized society if there is anarchy.Exercise your rights using common sense.

The theater argument is a moot point as a theater is a privately owned business and your first amendment rights are not applicable there.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

The theater argument is a moot point as a theater is a privately owned business and your first amendment rights are not applicable there.

As it would also apply to carrying a gun, so your criticism of that point is moot. They cancel out.

Point of his post and example is that while you have rights, they are not without some infringement in certain citations. For example, i can infringe on your God given 2A rights in my home.

 

[spanky]

As it would also apply to carrying a gun, so your criticism of that point is moot. They cancel out.

Actually it's not moot since LE is not a manager or owner of the business so private property rights are not valid unless directed as such by management/ownership.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Actually it's not moot since LE is not a manager or owner of the business so private property rights are not valid unless directed as such by management/ownership.

I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say. WHat does LEO have to do with it?

Point is, none of your constitutionally protected rights are completely absolute and without some form of infringement.

Wether that be the inability to yell fire in a theater.

Or the inability to carry your gun in my home if i so deem it.

While it sounds cool to say "What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED don't you understand" the reality is that there always has been and always will be some form of infringement on your right. The difference is that you accept some and do not like others.

 

[spanky]

I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say. WHat does LEO have to do with it?

Point is, none of your constitutionally protected rights are completely absolute and without some form of infringement.

Wether that be the inability to yell fire in a theater.

Or the inability to carry your gun in my home if i so deem it.

While it sounds cool to say "What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED don't you understand" the reality is that there always has been and always will be some form of infringement on your right. The difference is that you accept some and do not like others.

Didn't the thread start out as some guy getting hassled for OC? Getting hassled for OC by LE in a public area and having your first amendment rights infringed by a property owner are hardly equivalent. At least, in my humble opinion.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Didn't the thread start out as some guy getting hassled for OC? Getting hassled for OC by LE in a public area and having your first amendment rights infringed by a property owner are hardly equivalent. At least, in my humble opinion.

Probably so, but i am confused now, so you win.

I was making a general statement about rights in support of what the other guy said. Discussions have a tendency to change direction.

I agree they are not equivalent. Never said they were. However, like I did say, they are both examples of an infringement on your rights.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

All I'm going to say is you really have to take what those guys say over there with a grain of salt.

Also consider the age of the OP.


On the deputy drawing his weapon: I've had a similar discussion with a nervous/cautious supervisor about "display of force" and public perception. Nobody with half a lick of sense should knowingly enter into a potentialy deadly conflict on even ground. If your holstered, I am going to draw before you. If you have a pistol, I'm going to have a rifle, if you have a rifle, I am going to have at least one buddy with his rifle, preferably 20 buddies and a SEAL team.

Welcome. When you get a second, make a thread and introduce yourself and tell us a little about you and your background.


I agree. Also, we have no idea, again, how this kid looked or was acting. I probably would not have, but I do not fault the officer for doing it. There could have been a string of robberies in that area. WHo knows all the circumstances?

 

[PAPACHUCK]

The whole point of me posting this thread, it so we may discuss what I hope will be a increasing awareness among LEO's that a law-abiding citizen has the right to OC in this state without interference, as long as his actions are normal and non-criminal.

I wear a sidearm daily for work, though I'm not a LEO, and if I need to stop for gas or smokes, I'm not going to disarm and leave a weapon un-secured in my truck. Brannon, you've met me and I think you would agree that the reason I've never been hassled for my gun, is due to my appearance and attire. That's nice, but there may be days I just want to wear my gun on a day off, and that's where I have a concern. Overall I trust the LEO's on the northshore more, simply because I feel they are more used to seeing a civilian with a firearm due to a much larger population of hunters and outdoorsmen. Who I'm more worried about is the metro(NOPD/OPSO) cops who aren't expecting a citizen to have a gun, and who aren't exactly "gun" guys. I've had the experience of a non-gun-guy LEO discharge his weapon right in front of my face, in the store, because he had the poorest gun handling skills I've ever seen. These " I shoot once a year to qualify and that's good enough" guys are who scare me when I OC. I don't want to have a gun drawn on me, but if that comes to be, I damned sure want the officer to know what he/she's doing. I don't trust that is the case with enough officers. The amount of time spent on less-than-lethal training seems to be more than time spent on weapon training, in some depts.

OC is a double-edged sword, and I see both parties' side of the issue. To me, there is only one recourse, training. Training of the LEO's part to assure they understand the rights of citizens, and training on the citizen's part to make sure they are aware of the LEO's job and responsibilities, and desire to go home at the end of the shift. I believe that 99% of those who CC/OC are honest, law-abiding citizens, and would assist a LEO in bad situation if need be, even at their own peril. By the same token, I believe most LEO's believe in the right to keep and bear arms (they won't be a LEO forever). We need to communicate with each other and realize, we're on the same side.

 

[W1nds0rF0x]

moot, moot, moot.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

The whole point of me posting this thread, it so we may discuss what I hope will be a increasing awareness among LEO's that a law-abiding citizen has the right to OC in this state without interference, as long as his actions are normal and non-criminal.

I wear a sidearm daily for work, though I'm not a LEO, and if I need to stop for gas or smokes, I'm not going to disarm and leave a weapon un-secured in my truck. Brannon, you've met me and I think you would agree that the reason I've never been hassled for my gun, is due to my appearance and attire. That's nice, but there may be days I just want to wear my gun on a day off, and that's where I have a concern. Overall I trust the LEO's on the northshore more, simply because I feel they are more used to seeing a civilian with a firearm due to a much larger population of hunters and outdoorsmen. Who I'm more worried about is the metro(NOPD/OPSO) cops who aren't expecting a citizen to have a gun, and who aren't exactly "gun" guys. I've had the experience of a non-gun-guy LEO discharge his weapon right in front of my face, in the store, because he had the poorest gun handling skills I've ever seen. These " I shoot once a year to qualify and that's good enough" guys are who scare me when I OC. I don't want to have a gun drawn on me, but if that comes to be, I damned sure want the officer to know what he/she's doing. I don't trust that is the case with enough officers. The amount of time spent on less-than-lethal training seems to be more than time spent on weapon training, in some depts.

OC is a double-edged sword, and I see both parties' side of the issue. To me, there is only one recourse, training. Training of the LEO's part to assure they understand the rights of citizens, and training on the citizen's part to make sure they are aware of the LEO's job and responsibilities, and desire to go home at the end of the shift. I believe that 99% of those who CC/OC are honest, law-abiding citizens, and would assist a LEO in bad situation if need be, even at their own peril. By the same token, I believe most LEO's believe in the right to keep and bear arms (they won't be a LEO forever). We need to communicate with each other and realize, we're on the same side.

i hear ya Chuck, and I agree wth you all the way.

What I find with people in general when the discussion turns to guns and laws is that they mostly want to view it in a very sterile and finite fashion, only taking into consideration the "law" and they completely do not factor in the human element for all parties involved.

Your point that the way you look and it's relative "belonging" to where you are coupled with how that image fits the other parties' stereotypes has a ton to do with how that interaction will go down. Wether you like that or not, that is the reality. take the gun, gun and badge, flip flops, long hair, tattoos, whatever, out of the equation and you still have interpersonal communication between two human beings of varying backgrounds. No two of these will be alike and they can never be fully predicted.

Hell, we are all pro-gun here and even we get into it on details and beliefs.

OC is not common. It is not socially acceptable. Yes it should be, but it is not. You have to deal with that. I should be 6-2", but I am not, I have to deal with it and all the baggage that comes with it.

 

[Hardballing]

The Thread That Would Not Die !



Only thing I didn't really understand was the original OC guys reference to the officer "holding his gun @ 45 degrees gangster style" or whatever the reference was. To the LEO's here, how many times have you broken leather and held a weapon at a different angle, with the intent to keep it somewhat concealed from either the view of a suspect or bystanders? About a gillzillion? At least that was the read I got on his post. And ALL things considered, he was interrupted for about 5 minutes of his day, no harm done, but people on the OC site seem to want to take up a collection to sue...somebody?

Perception ain't reality folks. No matter how good the sound bite sounds.

As an aside, and I am SURE that folks will get their shorts in a wad over this statement, but...OC is imho kind of dumb. You also have the "right" to stand outside the ghetto and carry a sign that reads, "Food Stamps Suck". But you're gonna be hassled (at minimum) when you do. Same thing here.

Peas and Soul Food to ALL. Out.

 

[Sin-ster]

And ALL things considered, he was interrupted for about 5 minutes of his day, no harm done, but people on the OC site seem to want to take up a collection to sue...somebody?

I gotta contend this one point, and it's not just in your post. I quoted because (as usual) you sum it up the best; and it's also the most recent, so I can be lazy.

Maybe it's because I've never carried a firearm as part of my profession or in the exercise of official duty, but I tend to put a little more emphasis on staring down the barrel of a weapon. I am sure your intention isn't to diminish the inherent risk, and in 99% of the OC complaints that are cross-posted on this board, encounters with LEO amount to little more than an inconvenience. In this case, however, I have to contend that it's a bit more serious.

I don't pretend to know SOP or acceptable tactics, but I have been around officers who "broke leather" but did not point the pistol at me. From a purely civilian stand point (who thinks OC is a poor choice, definitely agrees that LEOs have authority regardless of the circumstance, and CERTAINLY understand "cheating" in a potential gun fight), that is a lot less frightening but still very much an illustration of who is in charge.

I don't presume to know the details of this particular encounter, and NOLA and Kraut have both illustrated exactly the types of variables that indicate how interaction between LEO and potential suspect go down. Maybe this kid was "asking for it" (for lack of a better term), but nonetheless, pointing a firearm at someone is serious business, regardless of your background or employment. And I know you all feel the same way, based on the spirit of your comments on this subject.

It's great to hear from you LEOs on these topics; the vast majority of the voices make me glad to know you folks are on the job. As always, thanks for doing the inglorious work of upholding the law, and putting your lives on the line to do what's right. I, for one, certainly appreciate it.

 

[f350drvr]

Would you stop someone for wearing a political t-shirt that is in opposition to your views? Of course not, the (sic) aclu would be all over you and you know it. This is no different. What happened to the op was disgraceful. It shows a serious lack of professionalism and maturity..

I was just thinking today about how many deaths are caused by political t-shirts.

 

[f350drvr]

The point is the second ammendment is clear. Art. 1 sec 11 of the Louisiana constitution is also clear. The right to keep and BEAR arms is constitutionally protected equally with free speech. I may not like your speech, but you are constitutionally protected to do it. Just the same Oc'ers are also protected under the law.

I think anyone on the board would agree that the 2A grants those rights.


But comparing the cops stopping a kid openly carrying a gun, and
someone wearing a political tshirt is a reach at best. It comes across as very troll like on your 2nd post to the forum.

 

[JR1572]

attention all criminals: get yourself a holster and a polo shirt and you will never be stopped by law enforcement again. Ever.

I love this statement.

JR1572

P.S. OC is dumb. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.