Let's see how much jail time a deadly stray purchase will bring!

[drpc]

SO it looks like the convicted felon who killed 2 volunteer firemen and wounded two others was supplied with the guns by a 22 yr old neighbor. Let's see how aggressively she'll be prosecuted.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com...280028/Webster-suspect-speaks-arrest-imminent

After Columbine the woman who bought the 2 shotguns and the 22 rifle for the underaged shooters got off without being charged. A co-worker of theirs who set up the sale of the 9mm handgun got 4 years and the actual seller of the 9mm got 6 years. I think they both served half their sentences and were released. So a total of 5 years served for breaking gun laws that resulted in 13 deaths and 21 injuries. And we need tougher gun laws? How about enforcing the laws we already have!

 

[Mayonnaise]

The answer is simple; Criminal Intent.

Is it really necessary to prosecute someone to the full extent of the law when they never had any intent on harming anyone? I get it, the young lady broke the law and she should be punished. However, locking someone up who clearly is not a threat to society is little misguided and a waste of our justice system resources.

 

[Jack]

Already posted in the current events

 

[Mayonnaise]

Already posted in the current events

You mean that cluster where everyone is bickering over fast and furious or weather or not the ATF entrapped a gun shop into a straw purchase just to close them down?

 

[Sin-ster]

The answer is simple; Criminal Intent.

Is it really necessary to prosecute someone to the full extent of the law when they never had any intent on harming anyone? I get it, the young lady broke the law and she should be punished. However, locking someone up who clearly is not a threat to society is little misguided and a waste of our justice system resources.

She bought guns for a convicted felon.

What'd she think he was planning to do with them-- bake her a flipping cake?

Screw the straw purchase; she should be charged as an accessory to the murders.

 

[SVTFreak]

However, locking someone up who clearly is not a threat to society is little misguided and a waste of our justice system resources.

Not a threat to society? They killed 13 kids in that case. And two firefighters in the most recent. They are directly responsible for those deaths due to the laws they broke. Put them in jail.

 

[Mayonnaise]

Not a threat to society? They killed 13 kids in that case. And two firefighters in the most recent. They are directly responsible for those deaths due to the laws they broke. Put them in jail.

We are assuming the purchaser fully understood the intentions of the person for whom she was buying. If so, throw her ass under the jail. What if she was just some naive person who was talked into doing something illegal by a career criminal/manipulator?

Sometimes bad things happen to good people, its the risk you accept every time you walk out of your door. We then spend a great deal of time and effort chasing reasons that don't exist because, as a society, we must blame someone. The you lady who bought the guns for the crazy man who shot the firefighters, she broke the law and should be punished. Is she accountable for the deaths of those men? Certainly not, unless she KNEW what the man was planning.

I read this board a great deal more than I post. In fact I just joined to chime in on my personal experience with a polymer lower, but I digress. I see a lot of people (especially known LEO members) say they will hold off on joining the lynch mob until they get "all the details.'' I feel like the young lady in the firefighter case should be given the benefit of the doubt. We simply don't know her relationship with the alleged shooter, or the events that led up to her straw purchase.

 

[SpeedRacer]

We are assuming the purchaser fully understood the intentions of the person for whom she was buying. If so, throw her ass under the jail. What if she was just some naive person who was talked into doing something illegal by a career criminal/manipulator?

Sometimes bad things happen to good people, its the risk you accept every time you walk out of your door. We then spend a great deal of time and effort chasing reasons that don't exist because, as a society, we must blame someone. The you lady who bought the guns for the crazy man who shot the firefighters, she broke the law and should be punished. Is she accountable for the deaths of those men? Certainly not, unless she KNEW what the man was planning.

I read this board a great deal more than I post. In fact I just joined to chime in on my personal experience with a polymer lower, but I digress. I see a lot of people (especially known LEO members) say they will hold off on joining the lynch mob until they get "all the details.'' I feel like the young lady in the firefighter case should be given the benefit of the doubt. We simply don't know her relationship with the alleged shooter, or the events that led up to her straw purchase.

Which is why the laws are in place, and why it's stupid to straw buy guns for people. Last I checked naivety is not a legal defense.

 

[Mayonnaise]

Screw the straw purchase; she should be charged as an accessory to the murders.

I don't want to get into a debate or fight but what if it was your daughter/mother/sister who was manipulated into buying her con boytoy a gun? Or worse, what if she was threatened or in an abusive relationship? It is entirely possible and happens to thousands of women EVERYDAY.

 

[Mayonnaise]

Which is why the laws are in place, and why it's stupid to straw buy guns for people. Last I checked naivety is not a legal defense.

I agree with you completely. She should be charged with the appropriate crime. 100% correct that being dumb doesn't get you out of trouble. However, the severity of her sentencing will hinge almost completely on whether or not the prosecution can prove specific intent. Which is why you see straw purchasers in previous cases walking free and not locked up in the deepest darkest hole with the murderers and rapists.

 

[JamesBlake]

I really don't think that straw purchase is any worse than FtF sales. If someone does a criminal act with what I sell them, or give them, that's was not my intention and in the case of FtF, I broke no law.

Under the law I'd believe a Christmas present could be called a straw purchase if the person receiving the gun was ineligible to own it, If the giver did not have knowledge of the ineligibility.

 

[Isaac-1]

The other side of this coin is that we have so many ineligible people, guys that did something stupid when they were 18 years old served a few months in prison and now can't legally own a gun 10 or 20 years later. For that matter we also have those that may have never served a day in prison, but have restraining orders against them that they may not even know about, ...

 

[Jack]

You mean that cluster where everyone is bickering over fast and furious or weather or not the ATF entrapped a gun shop into a straw purchase just to close them down?

It would blend nicely with buying an AR-15 for a murderer is no big deal.

 

[drpc]

I really don't think that straw purchase is any worse than FtF sales. If someone does a criminal act with what I sell them, or give them, that's was not my intention and in the case of FtF, I broke no law.

Under the law I'd believe a Christmas present could be called a straw purchase if the person receiving the gun was ineligible to own it, If the giver did not have knowledge of the ineligibility.

The stray purchases are worse because they are illegal and FtF purchases are legal. In a straw purchase you are lying when asked if the weapons are intended to be owned and used by you. Whether she knew he as an excon or intended to shoot firemen is not needed to convict her. She lied on the form and her butt needs to sit in a jail cell. If someone asks you to buy a weapon at Cabellas for them you can be 99.9% certain that they can't legally buy one. So you know you are PROBABLY arming a convicted felon. In a FtF purchase you MIGHT be arming a felon, you might not. In terms of SPECIFIC INTENT, if a store sells liquor to a minor the State doesn't have to prove the seller knew the minor had specific intent to drink it, he might be giving it to his 21yr old friend as a Christmas present. The store owner still is guilty. We (legal gun owners) are going to go through all sorts of grief because of idiots like the 3 Columbine people, this Nguyen woman and Mary Lanza who didn't keep her guns away from her nutjob son. It's about time the government holds them responsible not us.

 

[Sin-ster]

I don't want to get into a debate or fight but what if it was your daughter/mother/sister who was manipulated into buying her con boytoy a gun? Or worse, what if she was threatened or in an abusive relationship? It is entirely possible and happens to thousands of women EVERYDAY.

I honestly can't answer that, as I have no daughter, my mother is far too intelligent for it, and my sisters would both ask me before being cajoled into something like that. Hypothetically speaking... I'd like to say that I'd take the same stance. But I'd probably nip the situation in the bud when they started dating a convicted felon in the first place...

That said-- does this benevolence in regards to intent spill over to other crimes as well?

Like the naive 17 year old who gets pressured into drinking and driving, and kills someone in a wreck? (Or perhaps more correctly, the person who gave them the booze. Or the fake ID. Or...) They certainly didn't INTEND to cause harm; they were hoping to get home safely. And there's a billion and one ways in which they might have been put in that position against their better judgement-- especially since alcohol inhibits decision making. It's entirely CERTAIN that this happens to tens of thousands of people EVERYDAY.

 

[bumpn2]

If you are driving 60 in a 55 and get pulled over, and you tell the officer well I didn't know what the speed limit was, does he let you off? No! So this woman should serve the time for the crime she committed. That's what's wrong with our kids and young adults today. There is no consequences for doing the wrong thing. To the fullest extent of the law, she should serve time. Then maybe the next person who is clearly not a threat to society will think twice about selling a gun to a convicted fellon.

 

[Mayonnaise]

The stray purchases are worse because they are illegal and FtF purchases are legal. In a straw purchase you are lying when asked if the weapons are intended to be owned and used by you. Whether she knew he as an excon or intended to shoot firemen is not needed to convict her. She lied on the form and her butt needs to sit in a jail cell...

Ok so assuming lying on a form 4473 is Straw purchase, it should result in jail time. So what is your stance on buying a gun from an FFL as a gift? It would still be considered lying on the 4473.

Anyone happen to know or have access to the sentencing guidelines for Straw Purchases? Does a gun being used in an assault, murder, or other crime have any effect on sentencing?

 

[Mayonnaise]

If you are driving 60 in a 55 and get pulled over, and you tell the officer well I didn't know what the speed limit was, does he let you off? No! So this woman should serve the time for the crime she committed. That's what's wrong with our kids and young adults today. There is no consequences for doing the wrong thing. To the fullest extent of the law, she should serve time. Then maybe the next person who is clearly not a threat to society will think twice about selling a gun to a convicted fellon.

60 in a 55 is a lessor charge than 75 or 100 in a 55. Nobody is saying she should not be charged. I'm only saying, lumping her in with a murderer could possibly be an exaggerated charge. I am assuming she had no prior knowledge of the crime that was committed or possibly no knowledge that her actions were criminal.

Personal experience of mine, I dated a girl back in college who's older brother was convicted of some felony drug charges. The specific charges slip my memory but she went to purchase a hand gun for him as a birthday gift. She had NO CLUE that if she followed through she could be breaking the law. Luckily no purchase was ever made.

Are we as a group clear on the definition of a straw purchase? Is it possible that to be considered a straw purchase you must be fully aware that you are buying a gun for someone who can not legally posses one? It is entirely possible to buy a gun as a gift for a significant other with ANY knowledge that person is a convicted felon.

 

[drpc]

Ok so assuming lying on a form 4473 is Straw purchase, it should result in jail time. So what is your stance on buying a gun from an FFL as a gift? It would still be considered lying on the 4473.

Anyone happen to know or have access to the sentencing guidelines for Straw Purchases? Does a gun being used in an assault, murder, or other crime have any effect on sentencing?

I recently did some work for a friend and didn't charge him for it. He knew I wanted a certain rifle and decided to give one to me as a gift. He asked a friend who was a State LEO who advised him to buy a VISA gift card with the purchase amount on it instead. That he might technically be violating the law if the 4473 said he was going to be the owner. The LEO wasn't AFT but the gift card made sense.
I think I heard that the max was 10 years for falsifying a 4473. I assume the Judge has leeway in his sentencing. If the weapon was confiscated on a traffic stop, the purchaser might not get charged. If it was confiscated from a closet during a Meth Lab bust the Judge would be a little harder (probation and a fine?) If it was used to kill 2 hero fireman, and if that Judge plans on getting reelected he'll probably give the whole 10.

 

[Mayonnaise]

I recently did some work for a friend and didn't charge him for it. He knew I wanted a certain rifle and decided to give one to me as a gift. He asked a friend who was a State LEO who advised him to buy a VISA gift card with the purchase amount on it instead. That he might technically be violating the law if the 4473 said he was going to be the owner. The LEO wasn't AFT but the gift card made sense.

via the ATF's web page

o straw purchases only involve underage customers?

Mr. Lucas
Not always. A straw purchase is a purchase in which the actual purchaser uses someone else — a.k.a. the *straw person* to make the purchase and complete the paperwork. Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

Felons, who are also prohibited from conducting a firearms transaction, will sometimes attempt to obtain guns this way, because they wouldn’t pass the NICS background check and could not truthfully fill out Form 4473. If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the Form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift.

Carla
What if a customer who qualifies to own a gun buys a firearm as a gift for someone else?

Mr. Lucas
The same rules apply. A transaction is legal as long as the person who fills out form 4473 does so truthfully and completes it as the actual purchaser. In that particular situation, we usually like to make sure they are aware of the rules associated with ATF I 5300.2. Again, you should feel comfortable denying the purchase if you think the customer is being dishonest in any way.

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

There is better wording in the ATF rule book but I'm too lazy to drag it out and quote it.

At the end of the day a gift does not a straw purchase make.