Local (Denham Springs) Cub Scouts Troop Needs Help

[Oreo]

Thanks for the PM Freshmeat we are looking forward to getting the boys shooting at the District Camp out in October.

 

[Freshmeat]

With the last couple posts I feel the need to be defensive here, but I'll try to keep it simple. Well… keeping it simple didn't work. This is long. Please read through this reply and if you have further questions, you can post here, PM me, or I believe you can e-mail me through this forum.

I don't know the story behind any existing BB guns. I'm not a BSA officer in any respect- I have not even filled out the BSA application to have any official standing within our pack. I am simply a parent trying to help.

With the Tunica District campout last October they were supposed to have BB gun shooting taking place. Instead, when we arrived and inquired, we were told the guns were out for repair and unavailable for use.

Then we had another Tunica District campout in the spring where we were told the boys would be shooting. When we arrived an inquired, we were told the guns were beyond repair and needed to be replaced.

Who told our Cubmaster they were out for repair then beyond repair? I don't have a clue. In the end we felt we were getting a lot of run-around regarding gun existence/condition as well as finding out exactly who we needed call/e-mail for that information. In that situation we decided to be pro-active and obtain a set of guns ourselves so that we could know for sure that a gun supply or repair condition was not what kept our boys from shooting this time around. We even volunteered Pack 283 to orchestrate the campout this October so that we could ensure the guns could be in the program and not overlooked again as two other packs had previously done (NOT blaming anyone on this; if they received the same confusions we were getting I completely understand them simply dropping the guns from the program.)

Why does our Cubmaster feel we "need" 40 guns? For starters, it's not only about shooting the guns. You'll have 10-15 (15 being absolute max) shooting, but we also wanted to have a station before the shooting station where the boys could handle guns and learn to load, cock, aim, etc so they're not getting up to the targets and freaking out about the whole scenario. We figured them having 15-20 minutes of handling a gun before they're firing the gun would be significantly more wise than handing them a gun to shoot then expecting them to listen as we explained everything else. So the 10-15 shooting jumps to 20-30 for handling procedures and then shooting. Beyond that, there are almost always going to be failures of some sort and as the Boy Scouts always advertised when I was in 20 years ago, the boys need to learn to "Always Be Prepared" even on the Cub Scouts level.
Can we get by with fewer than 40 guns? I'm sure we can make it work! But why not push for an ideal situation up front so we can best aim for (no pun intended) the ideal program regarding these guns?

We appreciate all the help we've received so far. I'm calling Oreo after lunch today (I'm guessing that's who W1nds0rF0x is referencing in his last post) to discuss the existing guns and whether they are, in fact, safe to use as well as what we need to do to get these guns to the camp directors in time for use at the Tunica District campout next month.

As for my lack of activity in this thread, I've been running thin (unfortunately only figuratively) between busting my tail at work to catch up from lost time during the storm, digging up my dead trees/bushes, cleaning up our family camp that took 4ft of water (my grandfather bought it over 30 years ago; please don't take my family having a camp to mean I'm loaded), helping neighbors and friends with storm stuff, and my wife being pregnant. I've done what I can to keep this going, but I've been pulled in lots of directions lately so this isn't something I think about every day when I'm home.

To help keep you guys more in the loop of what's going on I'm going to set a reminder to check the forum and thread daily for any new questions and suggestions on all of this.

W1nds0rF0x- please watch what you say when you make vague implications on public message boards. I am working to help the Cub Scouts on this. I replied to the single PM you sent me about trying to get someone to check into the thread and I replied to the single PM I had received from who I'm guessing is him (since at no point did you clarify) before logging in today. I've been loaded with stuff to do and have not had the opportunity to check up on things every day. In checking today (at the recommendation of a friend who is a member here) I found a couple of PMs from the Avondale representative as well as a couple from someone who purchased a gun as well as an offer to donate the rest of the money needed to get the full stock needed. Before I contact him about getting us more guns I'm going to get with the Avondale representative about any existing stock in place and the condition of that supply. I'll also contact our Cubmaster to get his exact intentions for these guns.

I'm doing my best to help out here in any way I can. Please give me the benefit of the doubt with this and if anyone has questions or concerns I have no problem PMing my cell phone number to discuss anything. I have nothing to hide in any of this and this sort of confusion is the exact reason I have refused to accept money to go and purchase the guns myself. I don't have the time or energy to track money down to the penny and truly don't want anyone thinking I'm pulling a fast one to get a little cash in my pocket under the guise of Cubs Scouts.

To directly answer the inquiries about current status…

We have collected 13 new Daisy Buck BB guns from users on here as well as two other message boards. Four more are on the way to the local Wal-Mart store for pick-up. A member of LPSO has one gun awaiting pick-up at the gun range in Walker and I have a couple of private commitments for another five, which I don't want to count until they are in hand.

So all in, 18 guns are purchased in total- five of them need to be picked up (four are still in shipment); five more may come.

I'll be calling our Cubmaster today to confirm his intentions for the guns. He is a "big picture" type of person so I'd imagine he wants to benefit as many Scouts as possible, as other parents here have stated they'd like to do. Our concern thus far has been a lack of maintenance on the new guns, but I've received word from the man who already maintains the other rifles at Avondale that he will be working the BB guns into his routines ASAP to ensure they are staying clean and functional moving forward. Once I have heard from my Cubmaster I will be in touch with the members of the Avondale crew who have been very helpful in explaining to me everything we need to do to make sure this all goes according to plan.

As soon as I have spoken with them I will post up here to clarify everything I can.

Once our official gun count and intention is confirmed we can look into making requests for preventative equipment like the silicone gun socks mentioned by Renegade.

For now, please just hang tight while I clarify all the confusion and try to get everyone directly involved with this effort on the same page so we can ensure the most efficient actions moving forward.

 

[W1nds0rF0x]

Nothing I said was meant to be vague, until you replied today it was unknown what was going on and since there have been a couple of less than perfect incidents in the past I felt there was a need to escalate the communication on this. Now that you replied everything looks much better.

 

[Freshmeat]

Nothing I said was meant to be vague, until you replied today it was unknown what was going on and since there have been a couple of less than perfect incidents in the past I felt there was a need to escalate the communication on this. Now that you replied everything looks much better.

I'm sorry if my reply came across as abrasive- it wasn't my intent, but I felt my character was in question so I was a bit on the defensive side. Hope all is clear, now.

In response to the future use of the guns I have been instructed to state that we, as Pack 283, are collecting these guns for the use of the Tunica District. There is a lot of fine print associated with all of that and ultimately, should another District within the Council need the guns for a District event, it is possible to arrange that. Please do not take that as me saying the guns will be freely passed around to whomever requests them; once I pass these guns along to the officials it will no longer be in my control so I am making no promises on who will and will not have access to the guns.

Once I have everything gathered together I will be transferring the possession of the guns from myself to our District Commissioner and District Executive who will handle everything else. They directly authorized our (Troop 283) solicitation of these guns and will be orchestrating the processes moving forward once I deliver the guns to them.

In addition to that, this whole discussion and the e-mails and phone calls we've been making have put a few things in motion. The guns we were told that were out for repair and then beyond repair have been assessed and twelve guns have been renovated and are ready for use. Those guns combined with the guns we have gathered (and have commitments to purchase) should be sufficient so at this point we are simply thanking everyone for the gun donations and requesting that any further desire to donate be filled in lieu of other needed supplies.

Here's what else we're looking for in terms of supplies

Ammunition. We're not sure how much we'll need; I'll have a better understanding of our goal for this in the next day or two.
Safety Glasses. I'm told we should try to gather 50 pairs of safety glasses so all the boys can be safe during handling, shooting, and turning-in procedures.
Gun oil. Again- not sure how much we'll need, but we'll take any we can get for the sake of keeping the guns in optimal working condition.
Carpet. We'd like to get a single section, roughly 6' x 12-15' so the boys can have a surface to lay down the guns between operations to minimize the risk of scratching them up. Ideally, this would be a new section of carpet and not something old and potentially full of allergens and bacteria.

Again- all of the donations (as well as assistance from those within the BSA organization) have been amazing and are appreciated beyond words. It looks like we have everything lined up for the boys to be shooting in October and I will be sure to get some video and photos to post here as long as doing so is within BSA guidelines.

 

[Charles1959]

PM Sent

 

[rollins]

Hi all, my name is David Rollins and I am the District Chairman for Tunica, as well as a board member of the Istrouma Area Council for the Boy Scouts of America. I'm also an NRA Certified Instructor, NRA Life Member, competitive skeet shooter (NSSA), and a pretty easy going guy, so I'm here to introduce myself and clarify a few points.

First I'd like to thank the original poster for taking the initiative to make sure there is enough equipment for this weekend's campout at Avondale. This is Cub Family Weekend, so there will be a huge crowd (at last count over a thousand people are registered). My wife and I will be onsite, so look for me and say hello if you are out there. I will most likely be camping with Pack 283, but the best place to find anyone is usually the mess hall or the Director's Lodge. I'm always in uniform, with a name tag and a shoulder patch that says District Chairman.

We all know that collectively owned guns often suffer from lack of proper maintenance; this is true in the military, scouts, heck even the guns that go back and forth between myself and my family members. The Istrouma Area Council can own assets and equipment (e.g., guns), including the ones at Avondale under the care of Joe Sanchez, the ASR Camp Manager. The District cannot own anything; we are a pass-through to the council. The units (i.e., cub scout packs) cannot own assets -- technically their checking accounts, camp trailers, and other equipment is owned by the chartering organisation, not the pack / troop committee or leaders. Of course, what happens in theory and in practice are very different, and I know that many units operate mostly independently of the chartering organisation's leadership. As a shooting instructor, my personal policy is that my students only shoot guns that I own or control, for reasons of safety and liability.

I'll be looking into the issue of shooting equipment at Avondale, and will report back here if there is interest. As for this weekend, I can't answer whether we have enough guns or not as I have delegated the coordination of activities to Keith Stark (cubmaster for P283). I've been asked by the council to investigate improvements to the shooting range and equipment, including writing grant requests to the NSSF and the Pelican State Friends of the NRA Foundation. Feel free to PM me with what you think we need to do, or post it here. You can also call me anytime at 1 800 378 3763.

Finally, thanks to Mike Christensen for bringing this post to my attention. Thank ALL of you on this board, for what you do to keep the shooting sports alive to be passed down to the next generation.

David Rollins

 

[vsound]

Welcome to the forum, David.

So, when are you going to come out for a match?

 

[Renegade]

Why does our Cubmaster feel we "need" 40 guns? For starters, it's not only about shooting the guns. You'll have 10-15 (15 being absolute max) shooting, but we also wanted to have a station before the shooting station where the boys could handle guns and learn to load, cock, aim, etc so they're not getting up to the targets and freaking out about the whole scenario. We figured them having 15-20 minutes of handling a gun before they're firing the gun would be significantly more wise than handing them a gun to shoot then expecting them to listen as we explained everything else. So the 10-15 shooting jumps to 20-30 for handling procedures and then shooting. Beyond that, there are almost always going to be failures of some sort and as the Boy Scouts always advertised when I was in 20 years ago, the boys need to learn to "Always Be Prepared" even on the Cub Scouts level.

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but let me get this straight... you're going to have a line (complete with required range officers) of 15 boys shooting bb guns, plus the required safety table (with leaders teaching all of the safety rules, etc.), PLUS you're going to add in a third station (with more leaders) allowing the boys to cock and dry-fire air rifles WHILE the other boys are shooting????? Please tell me you are going to consult with someone who has actually taken the BSA range training before y'all ink these plans???

I see this idea as 1) a good way to blow out some new air rifles, 2) a good way to distract from your safety class, and 3) a good way to spread your leadership too thin.

I fail to see anywhere in the BSA Shooting Manual where it advises/requires you to do this.

Again, please forgive me as I'm not trying to come across as ugly. I just see a lot of this sort of thing... I can't comprehend why so many people think they have to reinvent the wheel! We're talking about a millions-strong organization with tons of documentation, guidelines and required training... and people just pull stuff like this out of their ass! I think the biggest problem I've encountered on Cub BB ranges is a LACK of organization and adherence to the official rules... these kinds of ideas sounds great in theory, but in practice you'll be herding cats! There is a reason for the above-linked, official 133-page manual... quit thinking and start reading!!!

 

[Unclee1]

Hi all, my name is David Rollins and I am the District Chairman for Tunica, as well as a board member of the Istrouma Area Council for the Boy Scouts of America. I'm also an NRA Certified Instructor, NRA Life Member, competitive skeet shooter (NSSA), and a pretty easy going guy, so I'm here to introduce myself and clarify a few points.

First I'd like to thank the original poster for taking the initiative to make sure there is enough equipment for this weekend's campout at Avondale. This is Cub Family Weekend, so there will be a huge crowd (at last count over a thousand people are registered). My wife and I will be onsite, so look for me and say hello if you are out there. I will most likely be camping with Pack 283, but the best place to find anyone is usually the mess hall or the Director's Lodge. I'm always in uniform, with a name tag and a shoulder patch that says District Chairman.

We all know that collectively owned guns often suffer from lack of proper maintenance; this is true in the military, scouts, heck even the guns that go back and forth between myself and my family members. The Istrouma Area Council can own assets and equipment (e.g., guns), including the ones at Avondale under the care of Joe Sanchez, the ASR Camp Manager. The District cannot own anything; we are a pass-through to the council. The units (i.e., cub scout packs) cannot own assets -- technically their checking accounts, camp trailers, and other equipment is owned by the chartering organisation, not the pack / troop committee or leaders. Of course, what happens in theory and in practice are very different, and I know that many units operate mostly independently of the chartering organisation's leadership. As a shooting instructor, my personal policy is that my students only shoot guns that I own or control, for reasons of safety and liability.

I'll be looking into the issue of shooting equipment at Avondale, and will report back here if there is interest. As for this weekend, I can't answer whether we have enough guns or not as I have delegated the coordination of activities to Keith Stark (cubmaster for P283). I've been asked by the council to investigate improvements to the shooting range and equipment, including writing grant requests to the NSSF and the Pelican State Friends of the NRA Foundation. Feel free to PM me with what you think we need to do, or post it here. You can also call me anytime at 1 800 378 3763.

Finally, thanks to Mike Christensen for bringing this post to my attention. Thank ALL of you on this board, for what you do to keep the shooting sports alive to be passed down to the next generation.

David Rollins

Sounds like a great time and I hope the weather cooperates for your events!

 

[Emperor]

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but let me get this straight... you're going to have a line (complete with required range officers) of 15 boys shooting bb guns, plus the required safety table (with leaders teaching all of the safety rules, etc.), PLUS you're going to add in a third station (with more leaders) allowing the boys to cock and dry-fire air rifles WHILE the other boys are shooting????? Please tell me you are going to consult with someone who has actually taken the BSA range training before y'all ink these plans???

I see this idea as 1) a good way to blow out some new air rifles, 2) a good way to distract from your safety class, and 3) a good way to spread your leadership too thin.

I fail to see anywhere in the BSA Shooting Manual where it advises/requires you to do this.

Again, please forgive me as I'm not trying to come across as ugly. I just see a lot of this sort of thing... I can't comprehend why so many people think they have to reinvent the wheel! We're talking about a millions-strong organization with tons of documentation, guidelines and required training... and people just pull stuff like this out of their ass! I think the biggest problem I've encountered on Cub BB ranges is a LACK of organization and adherence to the official rules... these kinds of ideas sounds great in theory, but in practice you'll be herding cats! There is a reason for the above-linked, official 133-page manual... quit thinking and start reading!!!

Truer words were never spoken my friend.

Look, EVERY kid wants to shoot guns; particularly Cub Scouts. If you get as many guns as you think you are, you should donate them to YOUR pack! Let your Pack Master or a very involved Den Chief or Leader be the custodian of the guns. Make sure that whomever the that person is, they forward the guns to the next leader should their son bail, or they move on. Happens all the time.

The rules are such to keep the kids safe; and to keep the adults out of trouble. There are other ways to skin the cat. You just have to be careful not to run into situations that compromise YOUR integrity with these generous donations. A single $20 BB gun is a fly on a tick's behind, but 40 of them is $800.

Good luck!

 

[rollins]

If you get as many guns as you think you are, you should donate them to YOUR pack! Let your Pack Master or a very involved Den Chief or Leader be the custodian of the guns. Make sure that whomever the that person is, they forward the guns to the next leader should their son bail, or they move on. Happens all the time.

Great idea, as long as the guns live out their useful lives and don't end up in someone's personal collection (or worse yet, the pawn shop or eBay). When you solicit people for donations, you have a responsibility to make sure the money is well spent.

Just playing devil's advocate here; I'm sure the original poster will take care of the equipment (guns). I'm trying to avoid a situation whereby someone has to go begging again this time next year.

 

[Renegade]

Great idea, as long as the guns live out their useful lives and don't end up in someone's personal collection (or worse yet, the pawn shop or eBay). When you solicit people for donations, you have a responsibility to make sure the money is well spent.

Just playing devil's advocate here; I'm sure the original poster will take care of the equipment (guns). I'm trying to avoid a situation whereby someone has to go begging again this time next year.

+1000 I'm sure that they are collecting these BB guns with the best of intentions... and that they will promptly be turned over to Istrouma Area Council, so these kind donations can be utilized.

 

[rollins]

This event was a huge success, and I'd like to thank everyone for their help: the original poster from P283, Brad from the Avondale staff, the people here who donated guns, and our 'celebrity guest' Vince Buckles*. We were a bit short of equipment on the archery range, so I have been asked by the BSA IAC to write a grant request to the Youth Shooting Sports Alliance. (I could use help with this, so PM me if you like paperwork.)

*Vince had the great idea to propose using air rifles instead of lever action BB guns; in his words, "A man can only be swept so many times by a BB gun before his nerves give out". No idea if this is within policy, but I will find out....dcr