mental illness and gun control

[Rainsdrops]

After the numerous of shooting, we've recent experienced, blogs are filled with comments, regarding gun control for those mentally ill.

I'm wondering how does one definite mental. What are the prerequisites?
A person can be sane their entire lives, experience a life changing event, and go off the deep end.
Will we all be required psych evals, before gun purchases? Or subject to randoms?

Is it just me, or do people, not have common sense?

 

[US Infidel]

Your last statement pretty much nailed it.

 

[3fifty7]

I'm not sure if this exactly replies to the OP but here is my story.
A neighbor who lives just down the road is a text book case. He is a single male in his late 40s living with his parents. When he is on his meds he can be a semi functional human, but he is off of them as much as he is on them. On several occasions his parents locked him out of the house for days at a time. He has been barred from a local bank and insurance agency for making derogatory and obscene remarks toward female employees. I've witnessed him march the perimeter of his yard many times with pistol and rifle in hand. He routinely flips the bird to cars as they pass by and has barked at a few. He has been picked up by sheriffs deputies 3 times that I've seen, multiple units arrived each time. Twice he was already outside and the officers exited their vehicles with guns drawn on him. I don't know where they take him but he is usually back in a week or so and at it again before too long. I can only hope and pray he gets on the straight and narrow soon. Always be aware of what's going on around at all times.


Sent via telegraph with the same fingers I use to sip whiskey.

 

[Tx_oil]

Remember that laws can be passed, but that doesn't mean they can or will be enforced. In my past, I was a therapist at the Austin State Hospital, Austin Texas. I worked with adult chronic care (long term, unable to function in community setting) patients. It was a dangerous job and violent episodes happened almost daily. I finally burnt out and left that career but the deciding factor was when a .32 pistol was found in the room of a 300 lb aggressive patient --multiple convictions for assault and rape--and his locker was searched, which required a court order. In his locker was found wallets, credit cards, various watches and jewelery and a hit list he had compiled of staff members he wanted to kill. My name was #4 on his list, as well as a phone book he had test fired the pistol into. His punishment? Well, he was sent to the Psych ICU unit and kept on lockdown for 21 days. That's it. Because by this point in time he had been adjudicated as unfit for trial, no legal repercussions were dealt. Did you catch that? Many former convictions, but at the time was not fit to stand trial. Doesn't make sense to me either. Turns out the gun had been obtained at a CashAmerica pawn shop two blocks away. No one could explain how he, with no ID and a long criminal record had been able to buy a pistol. There were, of course, laws on the books then (1996) to prevent this kind of occurrence, and this was Austin, oasis of enlightened, antigun libtard politics. I'm not thinking that more laws will address this issue.

 

[Emperor]

Murderers with mental illness that use guns as their weapon of choice are not really what the anti-gun crowd prefer. You see, if you genuinely want to tackle the mental illness issue, you have to take the gun out of the discussion. Analyzing, defining, medicating, and/or infirming crazy people is a health issue. Not a gun issue.

 

[general mills]

I keep hearing about gun control to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, yet our mental health system continues to fall apart. We are releasing crazy people on the street. It's about the same as if the pound started dumping pit bulls on the streets and started blaming dog attacks on lax leash laws. At the present rate, we will soon not need gun control to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill, we will need guns to control the mentally ill.

 

[LACamper]

When I was a teen there was a guy a few houses down that was mentally ill. He was on disability for mental disability. When he took his meds he could function in society but not hold a job. When he was off his meds he was... dangerous.

He drove. When he was off his meds he stared at the ceiling of the car while he drove around the neighborhood. He would eventually total the car, save his disability checks, then buy another. The family was connected enough to keep his license valid- not that that would have stopped him.

He carried a galvanized garbage across the highway filled with sand (you can imagine what that weighed!). He got distracted and left it in the middle of the highway one day. We had cars skidding all over the place.

He didn't like where the telephone post was in front of his house. He got a hand saw out and was half way through before the police arrived! He spent a few weeks 'on vacation' then came back and bought another car.

He put his fist through a plate glass window. Later he told me he didn't like the look of the other guy (the reflection). Again, a few weeks away.

Finally, he bought a pistol. I don't know how, or what idiot sold it to him. He set up targets on the front lawn and started shooting bottles and cans. Towards a busy two lane highway... again vacation...

Its a tough call. As long as the meds are taken, or don't need to be adjusted, all is good. when the meds are missed, or combined with other things (he liked to drink beer also) things get bad. Obviously he was a danger to himself and others. You can't put him away and throw away the key but what can you do?

The solution is properly run group homes with some supervision that are pleasant to live in... unfortunately, Gov Jindal has slashed our mental health care budget in LA.

 

[Emperor]

When I was a teen there was a guy a few houses down that was mentally ill. He was on disability for mental disability. When he took his meds he could function in society but not hold a job. When he was off his meds he was... dangerous.

He drove. When he was off his meds he stared at the ceiling of the car while he drove around the neighborhood. He would eventually total the car, save his disability checks, then buy another. The family was connected enough to keep his license valid- not that that would have stopped him.

He carried a galvanized garbage across the highway filled with sand (you can imagine what that weighed!). He got distracted and left it in the middle of the highway one day. We had cars skidding all over the place.

He didn't like where the telephone post was in front of his house. He got a hand saw out and was half way through before the police arrived! He spent a few weeks 'on vacation' then came back and bought another car.

He put his fist through a plate glass window. Later he told me he didn't like the look of the other guy (the reflection). Again, a few weeks away.

Finally, he bought a pistol. I don't know how, or what idiot sold it to him. He set up targets on the front lawn and started shooting bottles and cans. Towards a busy two lane highway... again vacation...

Its a tough call. As long as the meds are taken, or don't need to be adjusted, all is good. when the meds are missed, or combined with other things (he liked to drink beer also) things get bad. Obviously he was a danger to himself and others. You can't put him away and throw away the key but what can you do?

The solution is properly run group homes with some supervision that are pleasant to live in... unfortunately, Gov Jindal has slashed our mental health care budget in LA.

 

[LACamper]

And that's only the major events!

He usually greeted anyone that came to our house with one of these:

He said he needed a car. He planned on laying around in it after he died...

He said his deceased father was the strongest man in the world, he can hold up 6' of mud.

Are you going to be buried when you die?

 

[MTregre]

Ill be the bad guy...

Anyone who needs meds to stay functional shouldn't be freely in society. There is no way to guarantee the pill is taken, so it is a risk to the people around them. There is ZERO risk to the mentally insane individual, to say so, means they are a victim. Make it a one strike your out kind of thing. Forget the meds one time, cause an issue, go away.

And all this crap about victimizing criminals needs to stop, its a larger part of the big picture. We make crazy people (no one sane shoots up a school or such) victims by saying they cant stand trial, or are too unstable... temporary insanity shouldn't be a plea/defense.

 

[LACamper]

I won't go that far. But managed care is important. Someone has to be responsible for them, and should be held responsible for their actions, just as you are for your kid's actions.

 

[MTregre]

I won't go that far. But managed care is important. Someone has to be responsible for them, and should be held responsible for their actions, just as you are for your kid's actions.

Yup, see... we had to start the discussion, no one offered anything. Now its going, keep it going.
The real reason we never see anything happen in the realm of gun control (Ill use that loosely mind you) is because each side reverts to the age old arguments based off of ideology. In this most recent case, there is no law on the books to prevent it, and no law, Constitutional, that could have prevented it.

An example Ill use for substance, I'm sure Ill get flak: Background checks don't cover private sales. I agree there is no way to "enforce" it, but just like the law abiding citizens legal owners are, they would comply. It at the very least takes some additional heat off us responsible owners. When I sell, I don't get a background check... I do require a bill of sale and copy of buyers ID. Going the way of requiring checks on all sales will do two things, insure the seller and again, take some heat off of we the responsible owners. It may be the best compromise... because, public opinion really is a classroom full of 8yos away from being swayed.

I'm in a FB conversation right now where a gun owner and retired Marine is truly, heartfully, advocating for pre sale testing. He referred to Israel and Switzerland. He is completely no longer swayed by the unConstitutionality of such a requirement. I know this kid somewhat well and would call him conservative minded. When those types of people begin to no longer care for "technicalities" as he calls them, when dealing with the Constitution we should take notice.
Historically societies revert to what we call today liberal mindsets and ideals. I'm not saying give in by any means, but just like we feel they should compromise on some outrages ideas like pre sale testing, doesn't mean we wont have to also. We need to strategically decide where we will compromise... because it will eventually happen. The only way it wont, will be if the option is taken from us.

 

[LACamper]

That's because we've had 20+ years of tv based indoctrination telling them that its ok to infringe on gun rights.

There needs to be a national discussion on mental health services and laws, without bringing 2A into the discussion. This goes just as much to driving and other actions as it does firearms. Once again, firearms are a tool. The mentally impaired can do as much or more damage with a few gallons of gasoline or a pipebomb or a truck as they can with a firearm. Imagine if someone wedged the doors closed on a theater and set fire to it... or set off a nail bomb inside a show? (and I wouldn't need black powder to do it... plenty of easily obtainable products can be made to explode).

 

[PPBart]

...Anyone who needs meds to stay functional shouldn't be freely in society...

I admit this is not a subject I've given a lot of thought to -- but I think I agree!

 

[Craig]

I believe background checks for private sales AKA "gun show loophole" is a backdoor registration.
There is no way to enforce it without registration of all guns

Registration would then lead to annual taxes or fees per gun.
People will willingly turn in guns to avoid the taxes/fees.

Nothing good will come of registration.

I don't have a proposed solution to the mental health discussion, but "universal background checks", closing the "gun show loophole" or whatever they call it next is not a solution I want to see. Although I do agree that some people shouldn't have access to firearms.

 

[MTregre]

That's because we've had 20+ years of tv based indoctrination telling them that its ok to infringe on gun rights.

There needs to be a national discussion on mental health services and laws, without bringing 2A into the discussion. This goes just as much to driving and other actions as it does firearms. Once again, firearms are a tool. The mentally impaired can do as much or more damage with a few gallons of gasoline or a pipebomb or a truck as they can with a firearm. Imagine if someone wedged the doors closed on a theater and set fire to it... or set off a nail bomb inside a show? (and I wouldn't need black powder to do it... plenty of easily obtainable products can be made to explode).

You are correct in stating other means to conduct the end result. The firearm is simple ease of access though. Its easier to kill the deer with my M1a rather than setting homemade claymores.

So, how do we find this common ground of mental illness? The left already wants to bar Veterans with PTSD from owning (since we are high risk domestic terrorist). Where do you allow the doctor to break privacy laws and report the illness to be placed on ones record? Does seeking help for depression following the death of a loved one mean depression gets put on your record?

I too don't see all good coming from increasing the checks to all sales, I don't think it'll lead to registration however. Laws would move to include all sellers who sold to someone not fit to own a firearm. Incentive to do what the law states. Now, I'm not saying the left wont ask for registration, but that's not part of the compromise.

 

[LACamper]

And that is the problem. About 15 years ago doctors decided everyone in society woud get along better if they were all on paxil, etc. How do we draw the line between someone getting help in dealing with everyday stress and someone that has true mental issues? It can't be by the prescription or even the dosage (heavier people need a higher dosage of the drugs). You can't even say anyone taking over a certain mg/pound (badly mixing my measurement systems there...). usually people with mental issues are on a cocktail prescription. Amphetymines cause anxiety so they prescripe anxiety drugs to counter that, etc.
We can't trust the doctors to make the decision because many of them are anti-2A, as is the AMA, who would be the ones teaching doctors where to draw the line.
The families should be the ones making the decision but that doesn't seem to be working.
50 years ago society controlled the problem. If someone pulled a gun in a crowd then someone in the crowd would have shot them down. Not enough people carry to depend on that. Eliminating gun free zones would be a help.

One of the biggest problems with mass shootings is the media attention.

If you've ever talked with a behaviorist they will quickly inform you that all negative behaviors are either attention seeking or avoidance (that's important- read it again if you don't totally understand that line!). The only way I can imagine a mass shooting being classified as avoidance is someone looking to commit suicide. EVERY other shooting is looking for attention in some way. What do we do when there's a shooting? Smear it all over the TV and the internet, even discuss it in Congress! Millions of people are rewarding the shooter with all the attention they could ever want (even if its post mortem).
The first thing we need to do is have the FCC ban news stations from putting the picture or name of a shooter on the news. That will eliminate a large part of the motivation for doing these shootings.

 

[MTregre]

I agree, the name and photo of the shooters should not be put up. Don't make the shooter a historical figure.

 

[sandman7925]

After the numerous of shooting, we've recent experienced

While I'm sure society can always do better I find it best to try not to get caught up in the 24 hour news cycle crap. Gun violence has been on the decline for quite some time regardless of what they lead you to believe.

 

[MTregre]

While I'm sure society can always do better I find it best to try not to get caught up in the 24 hour news cycle crap. Gun violence has been on the decline for quite some time regardless of what they lead you to believe.

I use to also go this direction too. I agree with the media issue, as already stated.
The big picture on crime is down... but smaller pictures and youll find its up. Along with the violent nature of the crimes. I think we can all agree, this most recent event, on live TV, was a precedent.