Norwich University Study On Trijicon RMR Vs Pistol Iron Sights

[freedive10]

This may be an interesting read since pistol red dots may be the norm of the future.

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/03/07/norwich-university-study-trijicon-rmr-vs-pistol-iron-sights/

Once on the link click to view the PDF.

 

[InterstateGuns]

Would have been nice to see some data when having to shoot from non traditional stances. I think that is where most of the advantage is.

 

[JBP55]

It would have been good if the shot times were listed as well.

 

[STTAB]

I've watched a few buds of mine switch to dots on their pistols. They provide the same advantages as having dots on your rifle. Dot on target, squeeze trigger. They swear by it. So do many open class shooters.

But what I preach, is your pistol, is that one weapon you only pull out when your life depends on it. I've seen many dots over the years go dead. When a dot goes out on a rifle you have BUIS. When the dot goes out on a pistol you have Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation, because you are guessing your POI.

Would you rather have that dot on your pistol, on the off chance you need to make a low percentage shot at 25 meters; or keep the old irons because they never go dead. They never fail. Matter of fact, for long range patrols I recommend to my guys, pull of the red dot and pop up the irons. They don't fog, don't scratch, don't auto off , and don't fail.

 

[chad]

I've watched a few buds of mine switch to dots on their pistols. They provide the same advantages as having dots on your rifle. Dot on target, squeeze trigger. They swear by it. So do many open class shooters.

But what I preach, is your pistol, is that one weapon you only pull out when your life depends on it. I've seen many dots over the years go dead. When a dot goes out on a rifle you have BUIS. When the dot goes out on a pistol you have Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation, because you are guessing your POI.

Would you rather have that dot on your pistol, on the off chance you need to make a low percentage shot at 25 meters; or keep the old irons because they never go dead. They never fail. Matter of fact, for long range patrols I recommend to my guys, pull of the red dot and pop up the irons. They don't fog, don't scratch, don't auto off , and don't fail.

When I used a RMR on my Glock I had suppressor height trijicons as back up sights.

 

[JBP55]

When I used a RMR on my Glock I had suppressor height trijicons as back up sights.[/QUOTE

Most do this.

 

[Jack]

When a dot goes out on a rifle you have BUIS. When the dot goes out on a pistol you have Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation, because you are guessing your POI

I think you're a bit confused. I haven't seen anyone using a red dot on a carry pistol without back up sights.

 

[STTAB]

I've used the set up with suppressor sights. We tried them, they have a tendency to snag. Plus the taller sights have trouble in the sight channels of most kydex holsters. Excess rub in the channel and problems ripping front sights off. Have gone back to standard height. Matter of fact the only pistol I have sporting a red dot is suppressed, IOT aim over the suppressor. Found this less problematic than tall iron sights.

I've seen plenty of red dots on pistols without irons. After dropping money on a doctor sight or equivalent, most people I've witnessed will knock out the rear sight and use a dove tail mount. A lot of guys won't throw down the bones to get their slide drilled and tapped much less relief-cut to use rears.

 

[doc ace]

http://www.unitytactical.com/products/atom-mount/


Unity Tactical, Folks. Enough said.

 

[STTAB]

Love Unity, great bunch of folks. Tried their product. Had to take a hot knife to my safariland so it would holster. Between a few buddies and myself we tried a few companies. Tried just about all options. Dovetail mount, screw mount, recessed mount, rears in front, rears in back. Took a vote and we all agreed. A pistol is your last chance weapon. Why not apply the KISS principle on the one piece of gear that absolutely CAN NOT fail.

If it's a daily carry, one word, "snag". On top of that most folks will only do a battery check when they clean it. I'm anal about my EDC but only strip it once a week. Most folks only clean theirs when they notice rust on the slide. Plus, most life saving engagements occur under six feet.

If it's a back up or secondary why complicate it. Having conversations with FOG's who pioneered CQB in the 80's, secondary's where only a necessary evil. Back then most tactical teams sported MP5s or surplus CAR15s. These guns where so unreliable they required a backup for the inevitable failure. They would ask why create a solution if there is no problem. Next will be K9s with laser beams strapped to their heads (I kid you not, I've seen the prototypes).

This thread reminded me of a few more CONs. First the learning curve is steep. Most guys who transition wind up with a "porpoise" presentation. They are attempting to drop the dot into their field of view. It takes a lot of practice to break the habit. When I transitioned I dry fired every morning for a month in order to get a straight out presentation. Shooting a dot on a rifle is natural. The shoulder stock and cheek weld locks your eye into the same position every time. Your brain knows where to find the dot because of consistency. No luck with a pistol. Your brain has no reference. Persistence will pay off though. Second, like most optics fog and dust are your enemy. If fog and dust occlude your optic, the BUIS are no good. Rendering the sight system useless. Same reason I'm not a fan of co-witnessing.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Who did you work with at Unity?

 

[Emperor]

I think you're a bit confused. I haven't seen anyone using a red dot on a carry pistol without back up sights.

Liar!

http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/...uot-Judge-SS!!!&highlight=red+dot+on+revolver

 

[bigtattoo79]

Love Unity, great bunch of folks. Tried their product. Had to take a hot knife to my safariland so it would holster. Between a few buddies and myself we tried a few companies. Tried just about all options. Dovetail mount, screw mount, recessed mount, rears in front, rears in back. Took a vote and we all agreed. A pistol is your last chance weapon. Why not apply the KISS principle on the one piece of gear that absolutely CAN NOT fail.

If it's a daily carry, one word, "snag". On top of that most folks will only do a battery check when they clean it. I'm anal about my EDC but only strip it once a week. Most folks only clean theirs when they notice rust on the slide. Plus, most life saving engagements occur under six feet.

If it's a back up or secondary why complicate it. Having conversations with FOG's who pioneered CQB in the 80's, secondary's where only a necessary evil. Back then most tactical teams sported MP5s or surplus CAR15s. These guns where so unreliable they required a backup for the inevitable failure. They would ask why create a solution if there is no problem. Next will be K9s with laser beams strapped to their heads (I kid you not, I've seen the prototypes).

This thread reminded me of a few more CONs. First the learning curve is steep. Most guys who transition wind up with a "porpoise" presentation. They are attempting to drop the dot into their field of view. It takes a lot of practice to break the habit. When I transitioned I dry fired every morning for a month in order to get a straight out presentation. Shooting a dot on a rifle is natural. The shoulder stock and cheek weld locks your eye into the same position every time. Your brain knows where to find the dot because of consistency. No luck with a pistol. Your brain has no reference. Persistence will pay off though. Second, like most optics fog and dust are your enemy. If fog and dust occlude your optic, the BUIS are no good. Rendering the sight system useless. Same reason I'm not a fan of co-witnessing.

I've been thinking of putting a RMR on my pistol with tall irons but I do a LOT of in and out of the AC during the day. How bad does a quality RMR fog up?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Fog with the RMR isn't an issue. It has been tested in some fairly extreme environments. The Phillipines and North Dakota in Minus 0 conditions.

 

[Jack]

Liar!

http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/...uot-Judge-SS!!!&highlight=red+dot+on+revolver

I didn't even need to click on the link to know what it was! God that brings back bad memories, once filled with broken English and genetic defects.

 

[STTAB]

Sorry, I don't have a name at Unity. I got the slide from a bulk purchase. They earned a reputation because responsiveness and great customer support. I'll try to find out who did the leg work and try to get a name. They deserve credit.



I mentioned fogging because of an experience I had working with a police department. One of the guys I was paired with sported a doctor sight on his pistol. He kept the inside of his patrol unit ice cold and it was hot and humid outside. Every time he exited his vehicle, his sight fogged up along with our sunglasses. After the first couple of times, I pointed it out, and he remedied it by swiping his fingers across the sight.

I've personally had issues with dust accumulation. Most holsters leave the glass exposed. All sights create a convenient bowl that collects derbies. After only one brown out the sight would require dusting. I'm already covering my rifle optic when stuck in a dust cloud, I can't worry about my pistol also. This would require a fifth step in presentation;

1-2-3-blow-4

 

[Jack]

What department allows officers to carry pistols with optics? I always figured most would be opposed to that. What all did you buy from unity? I've got a pair of their slides that I really like.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Sorry, I don't have a name at Unity. I got the slide from a bulk purchase. They earned a reputation because responsiveness and great customer support. I'll try to find out who did the leg work and try to get a name. They deserve credit.



I mentioned fogging because of an experience I had working with a police department. One of the guys I was paired with sported a doctor sight on his pistol. He kept the inside of his patrol unit ice cold and it was hot and humid outside. Every time he exited his vehicle, his sight fogged up along with our sunglasses. After the first couple of times, I pointed it out, and he remedied it by swiping his fingers across the sight.

I've personally had issues with dust accumulation. Most holsters leave the glass exposed. All sights create a convenient bowl that collects derbies. After only one brown out the sight would require dusting. I'm already covering my rifle optic when stuck in a dust cloud, I can't worry about my pistol also. This would require a fifth step in presentation;

1-2-3-blow-4

I'm not calling you out but the story you related about the fogging and dust can both be read on the Lightfighter Forum. You didn't paraphrase them very well. I also don't think you have a Unity Slide. I own the company and we haven't done Any Bulk Purchases to any US Gov or Mil entities. Maybe you have somebody else's similar product but I doubt it's ours.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

What ODAs were you on? I deployed with two different teams and we had a really trick fix for brown outs. A piece of Saran Wrap. It's really wasn't ever an issue for us with dust though because rifle optics are sealed and anti static coated but just to be safe a wrap of wrap did the trick.

 

[doc ace]

I've been thinking of putting a RMR on my pistol with tall irons but I do a LOT of in and out of the AC during the day. How bad does a quality RMR fog up?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They don't, your body heat on your carry weapon is maintaining a warmer temperature than the surrounding environment. Unless you are pointing the vent at your RMR or red dot, and have it unholstered away from your body and not tucked, its not gonna fog. If it does it will be seconds. They don't brown out either. I've fought in sandstorms and inclement weather and have not had one issue with browning out or the likes, and that was in the middle east. You're in suburbanville Louisiana. Quality optics have coated lenses and you can apply anti fog applications Like CAT CRAP (look it up its a real product) You will be operating under optimal conditions regardless of how hot or cold or rainy it is here in the USA.