Norwich University Study On Trijicon RMR Vs Pistol Iron Sights

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Jack. You'd be surprised. Several departments/agencies have a lot more latitude on accessory selection.

VG. No worries, I've got thick skin. Not the first time I've been called to the floor. I will readily admit I'm an opinionated guy, so are the majority of people we associate with. The LightFighter comment did hurt though.

I'm just trying to pass along my opinion based on my experiences. I've had to learn a lot if things the hard way, especially in the last 13+ years. I'm sure you have also. So do a lot of my coworkers who disagree with me. I see a lot of red dots in holsters.

By bulk purchase I was referring to numerous vendors. We often buy from several suppliers at once, try the products out, and decide. And you are correct, I made a snap judgment that it was a Unity product I tested. It was based solely on the picture I saw when I followed the link. If it wasn't yours, the similarity was uncanny down to the retaining screw. What I do know is at least two Unity products were in the group. This was a year ago. I don't know who has the slide now, these test items have a tendency to get squirreled away. Bottom line, Unity got a good reputation out of it.


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I've used the Saran Wrap trick before to keep junk out of my hammer, I'll have to try it in my red dot pistol. The trick was taught to me by a FOG in my early group days. Big white guy, built like a gorilla. VG, has anyone ever called you Bucket.


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[Jack]

Jack. You'd be surprised. Several departments/agencies have a lot more latitude on accessory selection.

You've peaked my curiosity, can you name any departments? Most of the officers I know from here have a department issued duty weapon.

 

[Vermiform]

You've peaked my curiosity, can you name any departments? Most of the officers I know from here have a department issued duty weapon.

No doubt. It would be nice to have an example to point to of a department that "gets it".

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

What ODAs were you on?

 

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I guess there is some consternation over my past and current employment. I don't recall making any claims I was special operations, spec ops, green beret, seal, etc. Ya, I did make a vague reference to being in group at one time. I didn't intend to drive anyone to conclusions, even if opinions were made prior to my "group" comment.

I honestly would prefer to not list my assignments. I'm still on the job. I'm not retiring for a few years. Even if I was out, I don't know many guys who advertise their ODAs in an open forum. Once it's on the internet, it's there forever.

I'm understanding of everyone being skeptical of my claimed experience. So would I. If it makes anyone feel better, I was a space shuttle door gunner with the 5th Intergalactic Mess Kit Repair Battalion. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

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Jack. Not gonna name departments/agencies. I expect them to maintain discretion. So will I.

 

[Jack]

Department handgun selection is a big secret? I'm really confused now.

 

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It was a G22. There you go secrets out.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Actually you did allude to it:


Trying to avoid controversy as a new guy but i can't in good conscious let this one go. New to the forum and reading old posts. I'm passionate about shooting and hope I can pass on some pearls of wisdom, hopefully gaining wisdom along the way. That being said.

Iron sights are the basis for a stellar shooter. Bottom line.

There is a reason why most long term shooting programs begin with iron sights. First off, iron marksmanship is a skill often forgot. Straight hold , 6 o'clock hold, line of white, favor left/right........makes long range shooting simpler/faster than the current crop of MOA/MIL/MILRAD systems. Second; the skill, concentration, focus,and attention to detail required to excel with iron sights prepare the marksman for advanced skill retention.

SOTIC, the special operations sniper course, begins with all students conducting a shoot in. The shoot consists of candidates firing a stock M4 with standard iron sights at a zeroing target placed at 25 meters. Doesn't matter where you group, it just matters on the shot group itself. This was implemented after SOF and the big army went to AP pure. The instructors saw a dramatic drop in basic marksmanship skills after the adoption of the red dot sight.

The first few weeks of the course consists of ARM (advanced rifle marksmanship). NRA heavy, focused on known distance shoots, with iron sights, no bipod, and service ammunition. Post AP adoption service wide; failure rates during ARM skyrocketed. Some may think, "Big Deal", scope technology has gone beyond the need for 600 meter iron sight shots. Talking with the FOGs who stood up the course, most people miss the point.

Requiring guys to pass ARM isn't a throwback for nostalgia. It's a well crafted formula for success. Experience has proven that a candidate who can master iron sights, will usually succeed. Basic rifle marksmanship requires focus on simple fundamentals. Doing this while maintaining sight alignment and sight picture.....at 600 meters...in the prone....on your elbows; takes focus, consistency, and skill. This is the mark of an advanced marksman. Advanced marksmanship is the building block for sniper marksmanship. The sniper marksmanship block is the same course only adding moving targets, pop up targets and optics. Of course this is with 7.62.

The sister course for CQB begins with pistol marksmanship and a day of iron sight rifle.

An old Tm Sgt of mine always chose pistol ranges when it came to brass tacks. He said if you can shoot a pistol well you can shoot anything else great. When pressed for an explanation, he said short radius iron sights make for great marksmen.

When in a similar course using 5.56, 300 meters was the standard in the same configuration. The same standards applied. Imagine 100 meters, prone unsupported, SR1 target, ten out of ten in the X/10 ring, under time; being the expected standard. Next string, pull off the red dot and try it again with BUIS. The average marksman will fail. Next day, 300 meters prone unsupported, 10 out of 10 shots in the bowling pin of a man size target within time. Failure is not an option. Every shot must count.

This is the the type of marksmanship that can only be achieved by mastering iron sights first. Attending these courses I had little trouble. I grew up in the days of carrying handles and 20" barrels. My first CQB run was in that exact configuration plus a mag light taped on the front. To this day I can make a CQB shot just as fast with my front sight post, as my red dot. Don't expect a head shot, but at least I'll make it count.

Within the last few years I attended a shooting course with a name brand instructor. Batteries ran dry after lunch and he recommended I bow out of the comp (loser buys beer). Mid string I ripped off my sight and finished the run with mu BUIS. The remainder of the day I ran with my irons for the last day of advanced drills. Wasn't the fastest, but not the slowest. Someone else bought coors light that day. Red dots have made us lazy. Learning to be a marksman with iron sights is hard. In the end it will make you a better shooter.

To this day my 556 set up for long range patrols (especially in wet environments) is laser/carrying handle/ front sight post. Flashlight and red dot are in the ruck. Experience says electronics will fail long term. Ask any 1st grouper why.

Also, reference slings. Some may think 90 degree elbows and locking in with leather are obsolete. My comrades and myself disagree. Standing off hand shots, at 600 meters, on a man size target would be impossible otherwise. 300 meters on a running man sized target, standing off hand, would be impossible otherwise. We may of upgraded to nylon slings but tried and true techniques that have proven themselves in world wars we won't forget. Ask Scarry Larry to do El Pres with a rifle and observe where his elbow is. It's not tucked in.


I know several group guys who have ODAs listed in their screen names on various forums on the web. It's not classified or sensitive.

 

[Jack]

It was a G22. There you go secrets out.

You've missed my question. What departments allow officers to carry pistols with optics?

 

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Any allusions were unintentional. I got all of that information off of Light Fighter.

 

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Jack. I saw the question. And I gave you an answer. Discretion was requested and granted. I keep my promises

 

[Jack]

Lol okay

 

[bigtattoo79]

Any allusions were unintentional. I got all of that information off of Light Fighter.

So I spent time reading your post going back and fourth on ordering a RMR weighing out the pros and cons to find out it was a bunch of copy and paste BS????


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So I spent time reading your post going back and fourth on ordering a RMR weighing out the pros and cons to find out it was a bunch of copy and paste BS????


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Sorry, it's hard to annotate sarcasm in writing. I have no clue what light fighter is, never been to the site.

 

[Jack]

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[goteron]

Its a shame this thread went down-hill.

I will throw in my .02 on irons never failing. I certainly don't think that is true. I have personally seen glock front sights (aftermarket metal sights) fall off under recoil. Whether that was due to poor installation technique, I don't know. But I don't believe irons will 1. Remain on the gun or 2. Hold zero "No matter what"

Are they likely more reliable than an RDS? I think so. But, just like I take precautions in installing my BUIS correctly, I take precautions maintaining my dots.

I have run dots / irons on timers and I truly believe the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I have also carried my M&P / RMR gun almost daily for about a year without cleaning it. It has been shot and oiled, but I never noticed enough dust / lint buildup on the lens to make a difference.

I have had an RMR battery die during a class, and it was a good training exercise, it also showed me that reverting to irons on the fly did not take a huge re-wire to accomplish.

I only have my personal experience to go on, which frankly, isn't backed by that high of a round a count, so YMMV.

 

[bigtattoo79]

Its a shame this thread went down-hill.

I will throw in my .02 on irons never failing. I certainly don't think that is true. I have personally seen glock front sights (aftermarket metal sights) fall off under recoil. Whether that was due to poor installation technique, I don't know. But I don't believe irons will 1. Remain on the gun or 2. Hold zero "No matter what"

Are they likely more reliable than an RDS? I think so. But, just like I take precautions in installing my BUIS correctly, I take precautions maintaining my dots.

I have run dots / irons on timers and I truly believe the benefits outweigh the negatives.

I have also carried my M&P / RMR gun almost daily for about a year without cleaning it. It has been shot and oiled, but I never noticed enough dust / lint buildup on the lens to make a difference.

I have had an RMR battery die during a class, and it was a good training exercise, it also showed me that reverting to irons on the fly did not take a huge re-wire to accomplish.

I only have my personal experience to go on, which frankly, isn't backed by that high of a round a count, so YMMV.

I did have a factory M&P Pro front sight sight fall off durning a USPSA match lol. Reading your post a couple times made me think about RMRs vs Irons in a different way.

1) I keep asking myself "what if" when it comes to RMRs.

2) I never even think about that iron sight that fell off my gun.





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