Not Helping His Case-

[Emperor]

The U.S. Constitution is a great guide! It can only be expected to stand up to today's standards and every situation that arises in the present day if the protectors (USSC), of it's meaning follow it. They however, have already exhibited ideological bias in many recent decisions so, so much for that. And if you denounce your country or your citizenship, you don't have to abide by the same laws or be protected by the same Constitution.

If there is any evidence that shows Al-awlaki wrote or said so, f**k him!

 

[gsneff]

Please, continue defending the jihadi's and the traitors. The more you say, the less people vote for Ron Paul.

Exactly. Many people wonder why libertarian ideas don't catch on more, its simply because som many of them are such douches that they simply turn people off. No one wants to be called a fascist or accused of not respecting the constitution. When someone is on your side 90% of the way how about you form an alliace and work out the other details in a civl manner on a later date. The Paulestinians are destroying any hope their leaders will ever have of coming to power and it is a shame because other than a couple of areas the libertarians are right on. You have to learn to not accept "purity" from everyone. I say again that just because we don't agree 100% of the time does not mean we are your enemies!

 

[Tate]

In the context of the 2nd amendment "well regulated" means practiced and/or trained. Militia at that time meant all able bodied men. My point about a university class was in response to the way you brought it into the discussion. You attempted to wield the fact that you've taken a course on the Constitution like a club in your argument. I simply meant to imply that one need not take a course to understand the Constitution, it's written in plain English and there's plenty of opportunity to study and educate one's self without needing a course taught at university.

 

[oleheat]

I doubt seriously this guy would have cheerfully claimed US Citizenship on a given day, gents.

He called for violence against America, and some listened closely and obeyed- successfully.

He recieved due process. The drone was armed, found it's target, and the process worked exactly how it was designed to work. That's the process, folks. Kudos to the military- now go get another one, boys!


I'm happy as hell that "my fellow American" bit the dust.

 

[VagabondLiberty]

This legal situation has nothing to do with Ron Paul, although your own bias against the man at this point is obvious and you are using this as a gotcha moment to back up your preconceived dislike for his views. Your argument that this is legal also falls flat because the court refuses to even address the legality of the situation by dismissing the issue of targeted assassination as a political question. That in and of itself presents a great problem because the executive branch now has carte blanche to kill whoever they want, wherever they want by simply stating the subject is a terrorist. The government has a secret list people targeted for assassination based on secret evidence which can never see the light of day and can never be challenged by any other branch of government. Therein lies the problem if you truly believe in the separation of powers. At this point in time, the executive branch has so much power to wield in any way they choose regardless of who is in power that the branch needs to be held accountable to someone.

Playing a little devil's advocate, what happens when the slippery slope finally comes to fruition on our home soil. I remember a document from DHS in 2009 and similar ones issued in numerous places shortly thereafter on the rise of rightwing extermism. In these reports it was stated time and again that simply having a certain set of views and openly speaking them or portraying those views made you a potential domestic terrorist. The views were nothing extreme either. It was things like being anti-illegal aliens, anti-abortion, against the proliferation of the welfare state, against gun control, against the microstamping of all ammunition, having training in firearms, being a military veteran, being anti-globalism cabals like the UN, storing large amounts of food and ammunition, displaying Gadsden flags and stickers or the same for Molon Labe items. How many times have those who dissent from the views of the current administration been called "terrorists" by those in D.C.?

Now, all it takes is for a pencil pusher in D.C. or one of the intelligence agencies to say you display terroristic tendencies and you end up on a watch list. Unbeknownst to you, you are on this list and buy a few weapons, a large amount of ammunition and fertilizer for your garden. Now you are labled a terrorist and instead of trying to bring you in alive, they fear you because you are armed. It's time to take the easy road out and just assassinate you because it will preserve the most life while ensuring the safety of everyone involved. It will be justified through the use of some flowery language about how you were a threat to national security and were planning on doing something domestically and it was essential for the safety of everyone in the area. Meanwhile all you were doing was taking advantage of some good deals on firearms and ammunition and trying to grow your own food locally. Sucks for you, but this could never happen in America right?

In the end, it is all fine and dandy when you are controlling who is defined as the enemy. The only problem with that is we citizens don't define the enemy. Bureacrats and pencil pushers define the enemy. The implications for the long game are frightening while everyone sits back and cheers the short game. That is my problem with the targeting of American citizens for assassination without due process, which in no way is nebulous regardless of what your one professor once told you in some college class.

 

[gsneff]

difference is this guy was in a theater of war out of teh jurisdiction of law enforcement that can simply capture the man. Are we to now make our military official police officers or do we rely on yemeni leo's to bring the guy in. Problem is neither of these two are trained in propper american questioning practices or are versed in miranda so now all it takes is one comment from those arresting him out of our jurisdiction to have the case thrown out of court for not following propper procedures. It was no secret that this man was considered by us (as well as by himself) as a leader in al qaeda. it was also no seret that he was on a hit list. if he wanted to dispute these allegations in a court of law all he had to do was contact the local embasy and tell them there has been a misunderstanding and that he would be coming by to turn himself in and he could have easily had a trial. This list of enemies is far from secret. If they ever resort to assasinating ANYONE (citizen or not) on american soil, i'll have a problem with it. Until then if you don't want to have a bomb shoved up you ba**, stay out of theaters of war! He was a legitimate military target and this was no different than bombing a military convey resultin in the death of a colonel.

 

[returningliberty]

This legal situation has nothing to do with Ron Paul, although your own bias against the man at this point is obvious and you are using this as a gotcha moment to back up your preconceived dislike for his views. Your argument that this is legal also falls flat because the court refuses to even address the legality of the situation by dismissing the issue of targeted assassination as a political question. That in and of itself presents a great problem because the executive branch now has carte blanche to kill whoever they want, wherever they want by simply stating the subject is a terrorist. The government has a secret list people targeted for assassination based on secret evidence which can never see the light of day and can never be challenged by any other branch of government. Therein lies the problem if you truly believe in the separation of powers. At this point in time, the executive branch has so much power to wield in any way they choose regardless of who is in power that the branch needs to be held accountable to someone.

Playing a little devil's advocate, what happens when the slippery slope finally comes to fruition on our home soil. I remember a document from DHS in 2009 and similar ones issued in numerous places shortly thereafter on the rise of rightwing extermism. In these reports it was stated time and again that simply having a certain set of views and openly speaking them or portraying those views made you a potential domestic terrorist. The views were nothing extreme either. It was things like being anti-illegal aliens, anti-abortion, against the proliferation of the welfare state, against gun control, against the microstamping of all ammunition, having training in firearms, being a military veteran, being anti-globalism cabals like the UN, storing large amounts of food and ammunition, displaying Gadsden flags and stickers or the same for Molon Labe items. How many times have those who dissent from the views of the current administration been called "terrorists" by those in D.C.?

Now, all it takes is for a pencil pusher in D.C. or one of the intelligence agencies to say you display terroristic tendencies and you end up on a watch list. Unbeknownst to you, you are on this list and buy a few weapons, a large amount of ammunition and fertilizer for your garden. Now you are labled a terrorist and instead of trying to bring you in alive, they fear you because you are armed. It's time to take the easy road out and just assassinate you because it will preserve the most life while ensuring the safety of everyone involved. It will be justified through the use of some flowery language about how you were a threat to national security and were planning on doing something domestically and it was essential for the safety of everyone in the area. Meanwhile all you were doing was taking advantage of some good deals on firearms and ammunition and trying to grow your own food locally. Sucks for you, but this could never happen in America right?

In the end, it is all fine and dandy when you are controlling who is defined as the enemy. The only problem with that is we citizens don't define the enemy. Bureacrats and pencil pushers define the enemy. The implications for the long game are frightening while everyone sits back and cheers the short game. That is my problem with the targeting of American citizens for assassination without due process, which in no way is nebulous regardless of what your one professor once told you in some college class.

First, I'm not going to play the what if game, I'm an Oath Keeper and am already cognizant of the DHS memo's as well as watch lists. We didn't outright kill Mcveigh, we didn't kill Hassan, we haven't even hung those damn pirates in Somalia. Claiming that the executive branch is a bloodthirsty oppression machine offing people without "due process of law" is irresponsible. This man was The Enemy in a time of war. It makes no difference what his documented citizenship was Other Than we, as Americans, have the responsibility to clean up after ourselves, including bringing traitors to a firey end.
I was not biased against Mr Paul in 08 when I sat in on his teleconferences, went to his campaign rally, and even helped volunteer. But over time I learned more about the people in his organization and more about his foreign policy and came to the realization "Holy crap! This dude's bughouse nuts and his followers are even worse!". Am I biased now? As Sarah Palin would say, You Betchya!

If the court dismissed the case, im a week behind the times (tests), but that would seem to me as further proof of the De Facto legality of the tactic.

 

[VagabondLiberty]

You are wrong yet again. Yemen is not a theatre of war, unless it is a double secret theater of war. Also, if you are in a country following the dictates of international law, you must be given access to your consulate upon arrest.

The other things you suggest are also false. He was in FBI custody in 2002. He was in D.C. and the Capital Building leading the daily prayer after that. He was questioned yet again on a later date by U.S. authorities. He was arrested and jailed in Yemen in 2006, where he was again questioned by U.S. letter agencies during his 18 month incarceration. Additionally, his family did try to dispute the allegations in a court of law on his behalf after being officially targeted for assassination. The court refused to hear the case on the grounds that targeted assassination was a political question. The point of all of this is that it would have been realtively easy to capture him and try him and execute him. Which if that happened, I would have no problem with the execution. One of my big, big problems with all of this is the vast overreach of power exhibited by the executive branch of this government, as well as the one directly preceding, and the complete bowing down of the other branches.

 

[VagabondLiberty]

Claiming that the executive branch is a bloodthirsty oppression machine offing people without "due process of law" is irresponsible.

At no point did I say anything even close the executive branch being a "bloodthirsty oppression machine". I stated, I thought rather simply, that the executive branch now has carte blanche authority to assassinate anyone, anywhere by claiming they are a terrorist without having to prove anything to anyone.

For the record, I agree with you that the people in Ron Paul's inner circles are are far worse than he is and that some of his views are quite extreme with no serious possibility of ever being successfully implemented given the issues of geopolitics.

 

[gsneff]

You are wrong yet again. Yemen is not a theatre of war, unless it is a double secret theater of war. Also, if you are in a country following the dictates of international law, you must be given access to your consulate upon arrest.

The other things you suggest are also false. He was in FBI custody in 2002. He was in D.C. and the Capital Building leading the daily prayer after that. He was questioned yet again on a later date by U.S. authorities. He was arrested and jailed in Yemen in 2006, where he was again questioned by U.S. letter agencies during his 18 month incarceration. Additionally, his family did try to dispute the allegations in a court of law on his behalf after being officially targeted for assassination. The court refused to hear the case on the grounds that targeted assassination was a political question. The point of all of this is that it would have been realtively easy to capture him and try him and execute him. Which if that happened, I would have no problem with the execution. One of my big, big problems with all of this is the vast overreach of power exhibited by the executive branch of this government, as well as the one directly preceding, and the complete bowing down of the other branches.

while yemen is not technically a theater of war, we have been carrying out military actions there for several years in coordination with the local government (arguing the constitutionality of this is another matter, but it is a defacto theater of war none the less). Second, it is true he is supposed to be given access to the consulate immediately, it does nothing to prevent interogations from happening on the way to the local jail. this questioning would be enough to get a case thrwon out.

the times you stated he was arrested was well before he made it to the big leagues. at that time he was under investigation it sounds like but they didn't yet have enough to indict. the family took it to court and the judge determined that based upon their arguments that there was no need for a court hearing because it fell within the powers of the POTUS. if it were really all that easy to capture the SOB we would have gone that route, after all Obama loves to give these terrorists platforms to shout there dispicable comments and for the government to pick up the tab for a multi-million dollar defense of a democratic doner, i mean public defender.

 

[VagabondLiberty]

the times you stated he was arrested was well before he made it to the big leagues.

He was never in the big leagues. He was a half-assed cleric and former adviser to the US Government who has been turned into a martyr by the targeting of him for extermination. Here's an article with specifics about how he was a half-assed cleric and had no special role within the terrorist cell other than being used for propaganda after he was put on the hit list.

 

[gsneff]

that opinion pieve didn't educate me on anything i didn't know. and when i stated "big leagues" i was not refering to him being the leader of any organization i was stating that he went from being a blowhard that many in agencies suspected would act a fool at some point to becoming an actual member of a terrorist organization. he was a recruiter and propaganda minister. he was the essentially Hanoi Jane (a traitor and commy) or to a lesser extent a modern Joseph Gerbils. His job was to indoctrinate young skulls full of mush so they would blow themselves up for allah and to keep up the moral of those already committed. He was also there to demoralize their enemies, but i don't think that role worked too well for him While he was far from being the greatest propagandist of all time he was still an enemy leader.

 

[Jeepers304]

Great points Vagabond took some of the words right out of my mouth. As for Ron Paul the guy sticks to his guns you have to like that and his popularity has forced the establishment to create Mr Cain's push. Dr Paul has his flaws and he has a uphill climb but I'll take that over the other given choices. My hope is for his son Rand who will see his fathers flaws/weak points change them and keep his fathers strong points and be a great leader

 

[Leonidas]

Ron Paul is not a political candidate, rather a cult leader.

 

[returningliberty]

Ron Paul is not a political candidate, rather a cult leader.

QFT.
Many serious people who were backing Paul as the least idiotic of our candidates have moved to Cain and are getting enthusiastic about it.

 

[Leonidas]

QFT.
Many serious people who were backing Paul as the least idiotic of our candidates have moved to Cain and are getting enthusiastic about it.

I have been disappointed by soooo many politicians that I have become very reluctant to get "enthusiastic" about any. That said, I'm liking Cain more and more every day. Not an experienced pol, so much the better. A guy who knows how to get things done and make things work. That's enough for me at this stage of the game. But, throw into the mix an eager willingness to stand up to the idiots in the media, and make it stick. Buddy, I'm in the tank.

 

[returningliberty]

I have been disappointed by soooo many politicians that I have become very reluctant to get "enthusiastic" about any. That said, I'm liking Cain more and more every day. Not an experienced pol, so much the better. A guy who knows how to get things done and make things work. That's enough for me at this stage of the game. But, throw into the mix an eager willingness to stand up to the idiots in the media, and make it stick. Buddy, I'm in the tank.

Lol I hear ya. When I heard "Conservative, never been a politician, CEO of a large corporation" I was falling over myself to donate.

 

[Jeepers304]

He used to be part of the fed reserve so he used to politics folks
http://www.infowars.com/herman-cain-another-establishment-pimp/