Number 2 for the CZ collection

[sportsbud]

Today I added my second CZ to my collection, I was driving around and decided to stop by Arms Merchant, and I noticed that they had a CZ 52 in the shop for a decent price (probably could have talked him down some but I had been eyeing one for awhile and jumped) it had the holster for it had 2 magazines, It also had the 9mm barrel in it! sadly it didnt have the original barrel, but I loved it none the less... this will look great in my collection next to my EDC the venerable CZ 75 P01, I plan on in the near future getting the 7.62 barrel and tring out the round to see if it the 7.62x25 is all its cracked up to be... But this will hopefully not be the last CZ I add too it, I am eyeing some other CZs on my list. I put one magazine through it it shot POA and had low recoil with some steel cased 115gr monarch 9mm. (I also set off some tannerite that made the neighbors come and investigate...) Overall its a great handgun and I think I should open carry it in that holster, would be funny to see the looks I would get...

 

[allen1911]

Nice, how much did you manage to snag it for, if you don't mind me asking. Been thinking about getting one myself.

 

[BOSS351]

Glad to see somebody else that has the CZ bug!!!! Congrats on the old school purchase!

 

[sportsbud]

Nice, how much did you manage to snag it for, if you don't mind me asking. Been thinking about getting one myself.

A bit high in my mind but got it for $300+tax, I could have knocked it down but I said I'll take it after he said it had the 9mm barrel in it and handed it to me...

 

[nola_]

I'm a fan of the CZ82. Nice guns.

 

[sportsbud]

Anyone have a good list of the old CZ guns to get? I want a CZ 82, 83, (97 would be nice), probably get a full size 75, wasn't there a few mouse guns they made? I would really love a 2075...

 

[sawgrass]

Nice find!! I have the CZ bug too and make it a habit to stay in touch with "Lefty" and "Poncho" my P-01s. On stand-by is my polished, stainless 75B which mainly comes out for BBQs.

.

 

[BOSS351]

Heres my little CZ collection as of now:
View attachment 47482

The RAMI is awesome!! And yes, it is a damn disease....

 

[Nomad.2nd]

MAN. I wish I had bought more when they were $80

I picked up one for $80 and one for $120.


I AM glad I got piles of Tins when they were still dirt cheap!

 

[sportsbud]

MAN. I wish I had bought more when they were $80

I picked up one for $80 and one for $120.


I AM glad I got piles of Tins when they were still dirt cheap!

Nice, I am thinking about just buying one in 7.62x25 and not bothering with the 7.62 barrel, also another note, nowhere on the frame is a caliber marked and the import mark is very minimal like CAI VT and the like, and the barrel even has the serial number of weapon on it, does this mean that it was professionally done and maybe came in in 9mm? (doubtful but surplus handguns are not my most knowledgeable subject), also I kinda want to get a good proof of the actual power and penetration of the 7.62x25... and I hear about reloading a .223 bullet in a .30 cal sabot and getting 2k FPS with it in the 52...

 

[sportsbud]

Heres my little CZ collection as of now:


The RAMI is awesome!! And yes, it is a damn disease....

The RAMI is so elusive... and when they show up its damn pricey...

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Nice, I am thinking about just buying one in 7.62x25 and not bothering with the 7.62 barrel, also another note, nowhere on the frame is a caliber marked and the import mark is very minimal like CAI VT and the like, and the barrel even has the serial number of weapon on it, does this mean that it was professionally done and maybe came in in 9mm? (doubtful but surplus handguns are not my most knowledgeable subject), also I kinda want to get a good proof of the actual power and penetration of the 7.62x25... and I hear about reloading a .223 bullet in a .30 cal sabot and getting 2k FPS with it in the 52...

Not saying it never happened.
But I don't know of any originally made in 9mm.

 

[sportsbud]

Not saying it never happened.
But I don't know of any originally made in 9mm.

Originally it was designed in 9mm... But I'm thinking it was it may have been done professionally done

 

[BOSS351]

I got lucky and got the RAMI from a member in Lafayette maybe 2-3 years back. I love this little fellow, especially with the Pearson mag pinky rest mod..really makes a difference in the feel. Check out the CZ forum. There is one for sale now!!!

 

[Robbie]

Great looking pistol, I've always wanted to shoot before I buy one.
I may have to make a shooting trade!!!

 

[sportsbud]

Great looking pistol, I've always wanted to shoot before I buy one.
I may have to make a shooting trade!!!

I still have to make a trip down to get that lower when it comes in I can bring it down. ..

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Originally it was designed in 9mm... But I'm thinking it was it may have been done professionally done

You SURE about that.

Because if I remember correctly, the CZ was made by the Czechs when they refused to adopt the Tokorev... In the (new) standard commie block caliber of 7.62x25. (they did that in many things... Like refusing the AK, the Makarov etc... You'll note they adopted the standard rounds.)


I'd be interested in some documentation...

 

[sportsbud]

You SURE about that.

Because if I remember correctly, the CZ was made by the Czechs when they refused to adopt the Tokorev... In the (new) standard commie block caliber of 7.62x25. (they did that in many things... Like refusing the AK, the Makarov etc... You'll note they adopted the standard rounds.)


I'd be interested in some documentation...

Alright working on it, but here is some anecdotal on how maybe , my 9mm barrel came to be...

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirear...3029/CZ52-Background-Information#.UvG1w_nIaj8

Its anecdotal but with some more research it may turn out to be true... about the 2nd or 3rd paragraph down... it was a prototype in 9mm but it may have been way different there are not any pictures really...
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/04/the-cz-52-pistol-a-1950s-czech-hotrod-2610910.html

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Alright working on it, but here is some anecdotal on how maybe , my 9mm barrel came to be...

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirear...3029/CZ52-Background-Information#.UvG1w_nIaj8

Its anecdotal but with some more research it may turn out to be true... about the 2nd or 3rd paragraph down... it was a prototype in 9mm but it may have been way different there are not any pictures really...
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/04/the-cz-52-pistol-a-1950s-czech-hotrod-2610910.html

I'm sorry but your first source looses its credibility by claiming that the "CZ brothers" invented the modern 7.62x25 from the broom handled Mauser cartrage.
While it IS true that the first was derived from the second.... It was done long before they could have done so...

This seems to have the dates right (my "off the cuff" knowledge is in exact, but this seems about right)
-note, immnot offering this as evidence, just "timeline"
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f14/kjs-7-62x25-tokarev-info-53805/

. Ok,so I've been interested in the caliber 7.62x25 Tokarev for quite some time now.

I've come across lots of info on the internet,and lots of myth,rumor,and debate about what this cartridge can or cannot do.
So,I decided I'd like to collect all the stuff I've learned and come across in one post.

For starters,this isn't the same old,same old "my caliber is better then yours" post.In any comparisons I make with other calibers,this is not to denounce or disdain anyone's pet handgun or caliber,its for informational purposes only.
Speaking of informational purposes,thats pretty much what this entire post is about.I'll be delving into one of the particular strengths of the 7.62x25 Tok,and thats penetration- specifically,armor penetration.

This is not because I have a particular need or desire to penetrate body armor.This is merely because its a particularity of the cartridge,something it does well.
Any information about this aspect and any other of the 7.62x25 Tok is for informational purposes only.

First,a little bit of history.

7.62x25 Tokarev was created by Fedor Tokarev for his TT-30 and 33 pistols around the late 1920's to 1930.It is the progeny of the 7.63x25 Mauser (itself the progeny of the 7.65x25 Borchardt),which was the preeminent cartridge chambered by the Mauser C96 "Broomhandle".AFAIK,the Russians acquired and liked the C96,with a distinctive version of it being nicknamed the "Bolo" Mauser,for the Bolsheviks that favored it.

7.63x25 Mauser,in normal trim,is usually an 85grain bullet going 1300-1400fps from a pistol barrel.

While some sources assert that the Tok is an improved version of the Mauser,its more likely that the Soviets decided to adopt and adapt it for their own munitions program which,at the time, predominately favored a single caliber -7.62,or .30- for all small arms,and there was really no "improvement" made to the overall and ballistic characteristics of the Mauser.
However,the Soviets did produce a few specialty cartridges,including AP,Trace,and Incendiary.
The early Soviet 7.62x25 Tokarev is still listed as an 85grain bullet with a muzzle velocity between 1300-1400fps from a handgun.

Of interest,is that the Germans used captured Soviet weapons on the Eastern Front,most notably the PPSh series,and fed them with 7.63x25 Mauser ammunition produced in Germany.

I cannot find any historical anecdotes of the reverse- of 7.62x25 being used in Mauser pistols.....although it seems to go without saying that in a nation like Soviet Russia where the government produces or procures all sources of ammunition and arms,that someone with a C96 variant chambered in 7.63x25 did at some point fire Soviet loaded 7.62x25 tokarev ammunition in their weapon.

Along the same vein,it would seem to me that the Soviets,with a large amount of C96's in inventory at the time,wouldn't do something as baldly detrimental to their ability to utilize those weapons as field a dangerously loaded bastardized version of the cartridge they are chambered for.
I believe that Fedor Tokarev intentionally designed the Tok to be compatible with the Mauser,and the only reason why Tok is "7.62" rather then "7.63" is because of the Soviet small arms standardization program to 7.62.

In fact,given the ballistic similarity between Soviet loaded tok and the 7.63 Mauser,I would assert that firing the Soviet load in a C96 would be fine.

But here is where things get "interesting" and there are some "caveats".

Sometime around the 50's the Czechs got around to utilizing 7.62x25 Tokarev in their weapons,as they were made part of the same small arms standardization protocol as the rest of the WARSAW nations.

Quote:
WHB Smith, "Small Arms of the World", Stackpole, 1966, describes the Czech load as M48 and as ~20% heavier than the Russian. When the Soviets insisted the Warsaw Pact countries standardize on 7.62x25mm, the Czechs adapted their VZ 24 and CZ 26 submachineguns to 7.62x25 in 1951, but loaded their M48 rounds to get ~1800 fps from an 11 inch barrel. They then adopted the CZ Model 1952 (CZ vz 52) pistol to handle their standard M48 7.62x25 load (developed for the submachinegun). Smith lists Czech 7.62x25 from the pistol at 1600 fps, and lists the Russian 7.62x25 at 1640 fps from the PPSh submachinegun and 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol. Given the muzzle flash evident when firing the CZ 52 with Czech ammo, I suspect higher velocity is achieved with slower burning powder not with higher operating pressure. Czech and Russian pistols appear safe with either Czech or Russian commercial or issue ammo but the recoil impulse of the Czech ammo seems more intense. An experimenter who goes by the internet handle "Clark" who does tests-to-destruction warns that with deliberate overloads the Czech CZ 52 barrel will fail before the Tokarev barrel.

-From WikiTalk; Naaman Brown, 28 August 2011
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Talk:7.62×25mm_Tokarev#Photo._Armor_piercing.3F
So,basically while the original Tokarev load was created for the Tokarev pistol and was then used in SMG's,the Czech M48 Tokarev load was cooked up for Czech submachineguns -hence it is actually SMG ammo- and was intentionally loaded with slow burning powder to give more velocity in longer barrels,and then the CZ52 was adapted to fire it.
So,in fact,the Czechs DID make the ammo for the subguns first,then made the pistol to digest the "special SMG ammo" who's existence has been debated in forums for like 10 years now......

.

Interesting hunt though... As Ive now come across 3rd had claims of finding original 9mm barrels being imported. If true... Im curious about weather it was made for export.

(back to the hunt) thanks for the project! nyone else want to weigh in?


Edit:

This would lean towards the belief that it was made for export... Particularely if they came with both barrels:
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=40118.0

CZ has done lots of exporting around the world.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=44418.0


http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=5172.0
Looks like the OP did pretty good.

 

[sportsbud]

Neat little thing about accuracy testing twords the bottom of the page, seems the more punch marks on the slide the less accurate the weapon was... (but take it with a grain of salt)
http://www.harringtonproducts.com/markings.php

I need this practice being a .mil paralegal and all.. Not going to dig too deep since all sources will probably not be the best no matter what or were it comes from, not very many records made it to public domain over there...