Pin and weld or go the pistol route?

[ozarkpugs]

There is no such thing as a pistol lower. Lots of misinformation being passed around here.

Also SBA3 > Pretty much every other 'brace".

There is rifle lowers and other lowers ,if it was sold as a rifle it can not be used as a pistol lower it had to have been sold as an other to be used as a pistol lower . If it has a pistol brace it is considered a pistol lower by law enforcement if it has a carbine / rifle stock it is not a pistol lower it's a rifle lower . By pistol lower we are referring to a lower that has not been designated as a rifle lower and is configured in a fashion to make it a pistol . So it's not misinformation as all lowers are not legal to use on pistols and a lower legal to use on a pistol is only legal when configured as a pistol lower .

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[thperez1972]

There is rifle lowers and other lowers ,if it was sold as a rifle it can not be used as a pistol lower it had to have been sold as an other to be used as a pistol lower . If it has a pistol brace it is considered a pistol lower by law enforcement if it has a carbine / rifle stock it is not a pistol lower it's a rifle lower . By pistol lower we are referring to a lower that has not been designated as a rifle lower and is configured in a fashion to make it a pistol . So it's not misinformation as all lowers are not legal to use on pistols and a lower legal to use on a pistol is only legal when configured as a pistol lower .

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If you buy a lower, there is no rifle/pistol designation. If you buy a complete rifle, the lower is part of the rifle and cannot be used with a barrel shorter than 16" without a tax stamp. Are you claiming that exchanging a butstock on a rifle to a brace and changing nothing else makes the lower a pistol lower?

If I buy an "other" lower, I can configure it and reconfigure it however I want as long as there nothing documenting any specific configuration. Without said documentation, it is impossible for any law enforcement to know what the previous configuration was. It's impossible to show that the lower on my pistol today was taken off a rifle configuration last week. So while switching out a 16" upper to an 11.5" upper and changing the buttstock to a pistol brace is technically illegal, so what? There's no way for show that was done. The only reason you can't use a lower from a weapon bought as a rifle on a pistol build is because of the paper trail.

 

[Vermiform]

Sorry, mad day isn't likely to be a cause of concern either. The police don't hear a complaint involving a non-life threatening emergency and run out to toss someone's house. They investigate the claim. Before they can enter the house, they need either permission of someone they believe is legally allowed to give permission or they need a warrant. Local or state law enforcement would need to get a warrant based on state law. What law would be the justification for the warrant? And cops quickly learn to spot when the person making the claim is a mad ex. So you can substitute law enforcement for ATF in my previous statement and my statement still stands.

I always agree with all of your posts. However, in this case I have to say there is no reason to tempt fate.

 

[thperez1972]

I always agree with all of your posts. However, in this case I have to say there is no reason to tempt fate.

In this specific case, it's easy. Bring the barrel to a shop and order a brace. If the barrel is ready before the brace comes in, you're good. If not, don't go pick up the barrel if you're worried the government will single you out of your mad ex will somehow know you have parts in a specific configuration during those couple of days before the brace gets there. I'm talking about in general. When's the last time the police got a warrant and searched your house? For me it's been never. There's no cause for them to so there's no legal justification for them to get a warrant. I'm not suggesting you should have a house full of SBR's without tax stamps. I'm saying a law abiding citizen can get the barrel done this pay period and order a brace next pay period without being concerned.

If I have a rifle, bought from a retailer as a rifle, and I take it apart for parts, is it tempting fate for me to buy a 12.5" barrel and throw it in the parts box before I buy an "other" lower?

 

[Vermiform]

If I have a rifle, bought from a retailer as a rifle, and I take it apart for parts, is it tempting fate for me to buy a 12.5" barrel and throw it in the parts box before I buy an "other" lower?

Tempting fate? Yes.
Likelihood of nothing ever happening? I'd say 99% or higher. Same likelihood of never having to shoot an intruder (depending on where you live I spose) but why take the chance when parts are so relatively inexpensive? We train and carry for that 1% chance encounter with a goblin. Same rules apply with adding toys to the toy box?

I dunno, maybe I'm just paranoid. I have been known to chastise others over 922R compliance failures. Maybe I need to lighten up a little. YMMV.

 

[thperez1972]

Tempting fate? Yes.
Likelihood of nothing ever happening? I'd say 99% or higher. Same likelihood of never having to shoot an intruder (depending on where you live I spose) but why take the chance when parts are so relatively inexpensive? We train and carry for that 1% chance encounter with a goblin. Same rules apply with adding toys to the toy box?

I dunno, maybe I'm just paranoid. I have been known to chastise others over 922R compliance failures. Maybe I need to lighten up a little. YMMV.

I understand training for the 1%. But training for the goblin 1% is not the same as accounting for the cops. Unlike the goblins, the cops must (are supposed to) follow a set of guidelines to ensure your rights are not violated. If the 4th amendment did not exist and the cops routinely searched random houses, I'd have a different opinion. Personally, I'm not going to pass up a deal on part X because I haven't gotten part Y yet. And I'm not going to rush out and grab part Y because I want to grab part X. I'm going to collect the parts I want to collect and build when I have the parts. So I can't say the same rules apply for me with the toy box. I have enough rifles and pistols that it would be a stretch to say I was in constructive possession of an SBR because I have a specific set of parts in a box without saying I'm in constructive possession of an SBR because I can switch a pistol upper with a rifle lower. I get the law. But, again, that's going to be an add-on charge when they come looking for something else.

 

[ozarkpugs]

There are a lot of men who would disagree that police know who is just an angry ex and if an angry ex says you have something illegal they can and often do get a warrant . I don't know if you misunderstood my post because you for the most part just repeat what I said about a lower purchased as other can go back and forth but if bought as part of a rifle has to stay a rifle . If you take a stock off a rifle and put a pistol brace on you have a pistol as far as fed law is concerned ( after all what is the difference between an AR pistol and AR rifle ? )but in some states it's a other weapon if over a certain length . Of course if it's over 26" and you put a vertical grip on it it is no longer a pistol but becomes an other weapon .

Sorry, mad day isn't likely to be a cause of concern either. The police don't hear a complaint involving a non-life threatening emergency and run out to toss someone's house. They investigate the claim. Before they can enter the house, they need either permission of someone they believe is legally allowed to give permission or they need a warrant. Local or state law enforcement would need to get a warrant based on state law. What law would be the justification for the warrant? And cops quickly learn to spot when the person making the claim is a mad ex. So you can substitute law enforcement for ATF in my previous statement and my statement still stands.

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[thperez1972]

There are a lot of men who would disagree that police know who is just an angry ex and if an angry ex says you have something illegal they can and often do get a warrant . I don't know if you misunderstood my post because you for the most part just repeat what I said about a lower purchased as other can go back and forth but if bought as part of a rifle has to stay a rifle . If you take a stock off a rifle and put a pistol brace on you have a pistol as far as fed law is concerned ( after all what is the difference between an AR pistol and AR rifle ? )but in some states it's a other weapon if over a certain length . Of course if it's over 26" and you put a vertical grip on it it is no longer a pistol but becomes an other weapon .

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They can recognize a mad ex but when the mad ex claims to be a victim, their options are limited. That situation comes down to a he said she said situation and it's up to the judge to sort it out. It's the job of the police to put the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator in the courtroom, hence the warrant. But that type of situation, and likely the scenario for your "a lot of men" is outside of the scope of this thread. Within this scope, the mad ex is a witness and the victim is the State of Louisiana or the United States of America. This situation allows for the police to have some time to investigate to decide what, if any, crimes were committed.

 

[ozarkpugs]

Maybe you missed the part about search and seizure , the fact a false charge can get your house searched is part of this post ,I was visiting a friend in Greenwood La a few years back and his Grandkids were playing with the phone and called 911 and the cops showed up even though 2 - 5 year olds said it was a prank they had to do a walk through ,had a gun they thought might be illegal was in plain sight they would not need a warrant . Remember he said she said means he usually looses his gun rights .

They can recognize a mad ex but when the mad ex claims to be a victim, their options are limited. That situation comes down to a he said she said situation and it's up to the judge to sort it out. It's the job of the police to put the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator in the courtroom, hence the warrant. But that type of situation, and likely the scenario for your "a lot of men" is outside of the scope of this thread. Within this scope, the mad ex is a witness and the victim is the State of Louisiana or the United States of America. This situation allows for the police to have some time to investigate to decide what, if any, crimes were committed.

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[thperez1972]

Maybe you missed the part about search and seizure , the fact a false charge can get your house searched is part of this post ,I was visiting a friend in Greenwood La a few years back and his Grandkids were playing with the phone and called 911 and the cops showed up even though 2 - 5 year olds said it was a prank they had to do a walk through ,had a gun they thought might be illegal was in plain sight they would not need a warrant . Remember he said she said means he usually looses his gun rights .

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Huge difference between a 911 hangup/prank call and a mad ex claiming you have a machine gun. Had the cops seen a gun they thought might be illegal, what law would they say he violated?

 

[ozarkpugs]

Seriously , are you really that naive ? Why are you trying to be so argumentive? If you don't feel like real life scenarios are going to happen to you fine but don't try to convince others they will never have to worry about the cops coming into their house . The advice given was good solid advice and completely accurate so what is your problem ? No everyone will not have a unwelcome cop visit just like everyone will not have a home intruder or be the target of violence , would you advise people not prepare for anything that might come up?

Huge difference between a 911 hangup/prank call and a mad ex claiming you have a machine gun. Had the cops seen a gun they thought might be illegal, what law would they say he violated?

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[ozarkpugs]

To answer your question if they see a gun they think is illegal they don't need a warrant if it's in open view and if they listened to every internet expert they could spend a decade in jail . It's just too easy to do things legal to take a chance for no gain .

Seriously , are you really that naive ? Why are you trying to be so argumentive? If you don't feel like real life scenarios are going to happen to you fine but don't try to convince others they will never have to worry about the cops coming into their house . The advice given was good solid advice and completely accurate so what is your problem ? No everyone will not have a unwelcome cop visit just like everyone will not have a home intruder or be the target of violence , would you advise people not prepare for anything that might come up?

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[SouthernUnderGod]

Sorry, mad day isn't likely to be a cause of concern either. The police don't hear a complaint involving a non-life threatening emergency and run out to toss someone's house. They investigate the claim. Before they can enter the house, they need either permission of someone they believe is legally allowed to give permission or they need a warrant. Local or state law enforcement would need to get a warrant based on state law. What law would be the justification for the warrant? And cops quickly learn to spot when the person making the claim is a mad ex. So you can substitute law enforcement for ATF in my previous statement and my statement still stands.

I wanted to relate something that I read in the NRA’s magazine (American Rifleman) a long time back:

There was pounding at the door in the middle of the night and the resident thought he was being burgled. He had no weapons save an unfinished black powder kit reproduction pistol. In the dark, in his PJ’s he grabbed the unfinished pistol and went toward the noise. The door was bashed open. Someone yelled “he’s got a gun” and several people tackled him. His wife, teenaged daughter and his son were cuffed and made to stand in public view in their nightclothes. They kept asking “Where are the guns?” After quite a while and an unproductive search, someone asked their names and asked for identification. Ultimately it was determined that the team had the wrong address.

In spite of the fact that I don’t agree with some of the ATF regulations and firearm laws, I try my best to follow them. You never know when you might have an unexpected visit.

It would really be simpler for everyone if the rules made sense and were the same everywhere. Time has shown that firearms regulations that are written by non-firearm politicians never make any improvements. Most make things worse.

Very few non-firearm people realize that the body of the population that constitutes the law-abiding firearm owners is in fact, a REAL militia that keeps crime checked and lowered by virtue of the preparedness of the armed populous. Take that away and you won’t be able to hire enough policemen to replace them.


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[thperez1972]

Seriously , are you really that naive ? Why are you trying to be so argumentive? If you don't feel like real life scenarios are going to happen to you fine but don't try to convince others they will never have to worry about the cops coming into their house . The advice given was good solid advice and completely accurate so what is your problem ? No everyone will not have a unwelcome cop visit just like everyone will not have a home intruder or be the target of violence , would you advise people not prepare for anything that might come up?

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You brought up the mad ex and the other cops. But when it was explained how it doesn't go down like that, you used an example of something else to back up your claim. A 911 hangup/prank call creates what could reasonably interpreted as an exigent circumstance, allowing the cops to clear the house for safety reasons. When 911 is called from a landline, the address is transmitted to the 911 operator. That's also the basis for the search at that location. An address is not transmitted when someone calls 911 with a cell phone so a hangup/prank call.

I've been in that situation myself. I was over at a friend's house when someone went to make a call. Their phones had 3 buttons across the top, one for police, one for fire, and one for ems. They were all set up to call 911. That someone hit one of them then hung up on the 911 operator when they realized what they had done. I was running to the bank and would ride with them if they were still there when I got back or I would meet them out if they weren't. They weren't. But as I pulled into the driveway, the sheriffs pulled in behind me. They questioned me and looked in the windows. The house was locked and dark because everyone had left already. They asked me about the Glock I had on my passenger seat. The locked house with no evidence on anyone being there was likely enough to satisfy them there was nobody in immediate danger.

But neither one of those is the same thing as a mad ex calling the police to report someone with a machine gun because there is no person in immediate danger. That's not being argumentative, that's me stating a fact. The cops won't get a call from an ex and rush out to get a warrant. Might there be an occasion when the cops show up for some reason other than a mad ex or your criminal activities unrelated to the box of parts? Sure, your 911 call and a wrong address are examples. Although you can give an example and you hear about it in the news, they happen so infrequently that there is statistically no chance of it happening to you. And if it does, I'll bet your next paycheck a large number of cops would look at a pistol with a brace and view that as a potentially illegal weapon before they see a box of parts and realize how they can be assembled.

And you never said what law you'd be charged with violating if they did see something.

 

[ozarkpugs]

If they see a gun they can and will secure it ,if it appears to be shorter than 16" they can and will ask for a stamp and if you say it's a pistol you had better produce a pistol brace . That is my reason for saying get a brace before chopping the barrel . I advised doing things in a legal order and you have advised not to worry about the law and do as you please because chances of getting caught are slim . I offered my 2 cents to maybe help someone ,if they take my advice or listen to you is ok with me. Again why do you have to be so argumentive .

You brought up the mad ex and the other cops. But when it was explained how it doesn't go down like that, you used an example of something else to back up your claim. A 911 hangup/prank call creates what could reasonably interpreted as an exigent circumstance, allowing the cops to clear the house for safety reasons. When 911 is called from a landline, the address is transmitted to the 911 operator. That's also the basis for the search at that location. An address is not transmitted when someone calls 911 with a cell phone so a hangup/prank call.

I've been in that situation myself. I was over at a friend's house when someone went to make a call. Their phones had 3 buttons across the top, one for police, one for fire, and one for ems. They were all set up to call 911. That someone hit one of them then hung up on the 911 operator when they realized what they had done. I was running to the bank and would ride with them if they were still there when I got back or I would meet them out if they weren't. They weren't. But as I pulled into the driveway, the sheriffs pulled in behind me. They questioned me and looked in the windows. The house was locked and dark because everyone had left already. They asked me about the Glock I had on my passenger seat. The locked house with no evidence on anyone being there was likely enough to satisfy them there was nobody in immediate danger.

But neither one of those is the same thing as a mad ex calling the police to report someone with a machine gun because there is no person in immediate danger. That's not being argumentative, that's me stating a fact. The cops won't get a call from an ex and rush out to get a warrant. Might there be an occasion when the cops show up for some reason other than a mad ex or your criminal activities unrelated to the box of parts? Sure, your 911 call and a wrong address are examples. Although you can give an example and you hear about it in the news, they happen so infrequently that there is statistically no chance of it happening to you. And if it does, I'll bet your next paycheck a large number of cops would look at a pistol with a brace and view that as a potentially illegal weapon before they see a box of parts and realize how they can be assembled.

And you never said what law you'd be charged with violating if they did see something.

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[thperez1972]

If they see a gun they can and will secure it ,if it appears to be shorter than 16" they can and will ask for a stamp and if you say it's a pistol you had better produce a pistol brace . That is my reason for saying get a brace before chopping the barrel . I advised doing things in a legal order and you have advised not to worry about the law and do as you please because chances of getting caught are slim . I offered my 2 cents to maybe help someone ,if they take my advice or listen to you is ok with me. Again why do you have to be so argumentive .

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The police will not seize a barrel that appears to be shorter than 16" if you cannot produce a brace. A short barrel, in and of itself, is legal. If the cops are searching your house based on the real life scenario you have presented, the scope of their search is limited to areas where a person could reasonably be. That means the moment they open a drawer or look in a box on the shelf, they have violated your 4th amendment rights. But that's all irrelevant as you have yet to provide the law that would be the justification for the seizure so the seizure is illegal. You call it argumentative. I call it repeatedly asking you to back up your claim.

 

[dk.easterly]

There is rifle lowers and other lowers ,if it was sold as a rifle it can not be used as a pistol lower it had to have been sold as an other to be used as a pistol lower . If it has a pistol brace it is considered a pistol lower by law enforcement if it has a carbine / rifle stock it is not a pistol lower it's a rifle lower . By pistol lower we are referring to a lower that has not been designated as a rifle lower and is configured in a fashion to make it a pistol . So it's not misinformation as all lowers are not legal to use on pistols and a lower legal to use on a pistol is only legal when configured as a pistol lower .

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A lower is a lower is a lower. There is no such thing as a pistol lower (at least not federally or in LA). Even a complete lower with a stock attached is still just a lower. AKA "Other".



You can argue all you like.

 

[ozarkpugs]

A lower with a stock on it may be just a lower but if it's the only lower you have and you have a 12" barrel and no stamp you are screwed . Unless it was purchased as a complete rifle the lower can be used as either one but the attacking tube and brace or stock determines whether it's a pistol or rifle . For some reason you think going back to the lower being not a pistol makes you sound right when I stated if purchased as Just a lower it should have been marked other . By your thinking if it is marked other it will always be an other weapon. It is what it appears to be / brace = Pistol stock= rifle .

A lower is a lower is a lower. There is no such thing as a pistol lower (at least not federally or in LA). Even a complete lower with a stock attached is still just a lower. AKA "Other".



You can argue all you like.

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[dk.easterly]

You're adding a lot of opinion to these posts...

 

[ozarkpugs]

I got my options from the federal laws ,I'm sorry if I have offended anyone .

You're adding a lot of opinion to these posts...

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