Production/Single Stack mags in front pocket (NROI RULING 9/21/11)

[spanky]

A Q&A in the latest front sight confirms it.

Page 4 & 83.

Mags in your front pocket in single stack or production do not fit the division requirements and warrant a bump to open.

Side cargo pockets that are behind the hip and rear pockets are OK.

 

[Guate_shooter]

I got a question!

I am no a Certified RO for USPSA so I really DUNO and I cant check the rule book since its only like 350 miles away from me right now

Could the competitor ask to be bumped to Limited instead of OPEN? It would be a little more fair of a play field instead of running against the big boys.

Thanks for the response in advance.

 

[spanky]

No. You go straight to open.

Ask Don what happens if your single stack gun doesn't fit in the box because of your basepads.

Curtis can (and I hope will) correct me if I'm wrong but once the match "starts" you have to be in compliance and open is the only place to go.

 

[scooterj]

I got a question!

I am no a Certified RO for USPSA so I really DUNO and I cant check the rule book since its only like 350 miles away from me right now

Could the competitor ask to be bumped to Limited instead of OPEN? It would be a little more fair of a play field instead of running against the big boys.

Thanks for the response in advance.

Before the first shot is fired, no problem. Otherwise, like Spanky said.

 

[spanky]

Yep, but I assume he's talking about after it starts since before you could just take it out.

 

[enutees]

I saw this today too. I always started with my first mag in my front pocket. I guess that habit will go away. No one ever told me anything different but I'll tuck it in the back pocket from now on.

 

[nickatnite]

I got a question!

I am no a Certified RO for USPSA so I really DUNO and I cant check the rule book since its only like 350 miles away from me right now

Could the competitor ask to be bumped to Limited instead of OPEN? It would be a little more fair of a play field instead of running against the big boys.

Thanks for the response in advance.

Being a certified RO has nothing to do with it...

You DO know they have the book online?

 

[Guate_shooter]

You DO know they have the book online?

Yeah but loads in a funny azz format on my computer for some reasson and changes the settings on everything I do to small letters every time I use adobe, I have to shut it down to go back to normal.

 

[spanky]

Being a certified RO has nothing to do with it...

You DO know they have the book online?

Okay Mr. an illegal production gun is magically made legal by removal of the factory magwell.

 

[BayouSlide]

I saw this today too. I always started with my first mag in my front pocket. I guess that habit will go away. No one ever told me anything different but I'll tuck it in the back pocket from now on.

There are some rules that some ROs may not be familiar with...some are based on official NROI interpretations/clarifications.

You are being given the straight scoop by Spanky and scooter.

I'm a firm believer that the only match that is fair to all competitors is the one where the rules are knowledgeably enforced to the letter of the law...that's as level a playing field as we can create, even at local matches. That way, you won't face an unpleasant surprises when you get bumped to Open (the only recourse in keeping with the rule book) when you have grip tape on the slide of your Production gun or if you're a Production or Single Stack competitor with a mag in your front pocket (no mags allowed forward of the front of the hip bone) at "Make Ready" (the start of the COF per 8.3.1) at your first Level II or Level III match.

 

[BayouSlide]

An interesting point: you can walk up to the start position with a mag in your front pocket...I used to do this all the time with my 11 round start mag when I shot Production. I pulled out the mag and then waited for the RO's "Make Ready". You don't have to be in compliance until the start of the COF...that's the "Make Ready" command (per 8.3.1)

 

[spanky]

An interesting point: you can walk up to the start position with a mag in your front pocket...I used to do this all the time with my 11 round start mag when I shot Production. I pulled out the mag and then waited for the RO's "Make Ready". You don't have to be in compliance until the start of the COF...that's the "Make Ready" command (per 8.3.1)

Correct but after your first round is fired, the mags can't go back there at all. Right?

 

[scooterj]

Correct but after your first round is fired, the mags can't go back there at all. Right?

Not during the COF. Between stages, no problem.
Lots of gray area here.

 

[bayoupirate]

The USPSA rulebook is available on line at the website, so your never further than your phone/computer, just get and app that will read a .pdf file, like free adobe reader.

The letter of the rule is correct is saying that the COF begins when the RO give the command "Make Ready".
I do not believe that the intent is to eliminate having a mag for loading as the first mag before the "Are you Ready" and "Stand By" commands are given. I would take issue with any RO that penalizes a competitor in that situation.
As long as the competitor have the equipment in the correct position at the when the start signal is given, THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE GAINED. In fact, I'd argue that if the RO Give the signal to begin, knowing that the competitor's gear was out of spec for that division, they'd share a portion of the fault. (similar to allowing a competitor to begin without hearing protection)

Now, if you have a mag in your front pocket and forget about it and leave it there during the COF: A) you never touch it or use it. How does an RO know you have it? are they using pat downs at your matches? B) you pull a bone head move and either need to use it (cuz the Star ate up all of your other mags) or remember it's there an pull it out an load it = You've just moved to open.

You can choose to shoot in limited, or limited 10 for single stack at the beginning of the match. Simply moving you to limited if you are out of spec isn't a penalty, it's just properly classifying your equipment. Moving you to OPEN is a penalty.

Ask the 8 shot revolver shooters who accidentally squeeze off a 7th shot on a stage.

OPEN!

 

[Gus McCrae]

I don't really compete to "compete" it's really just so I can get better at operating my gear. I also get, the rules are the rules.... that's fine with me.

All that being said, rules or not.... if you show up with a mag in your front pocket, it's not an advantage to having magazine holders on your belt. In the past, I have played with a mag in my front pockets.... it's way slow, but I would often carry my spare that way.

 

[BayouSlide]

The USPSA rulebook is available on line at the website, so your never further than your phone/computer, just get and app that will read a .pdf file, like free adobe reader.

The letter of the rule is correct is saying that the COF begins when the RO give the command "Make Ready".
I do not believe that the intent is to eliminate having a mag for loading as the first mag before the "Are you Ready" and "Stand By" commands are given. I would take issue with any RO that penalizes a competitor in that situation.
As long as the competitor have the equipment in the correct position at the when the start signal is given, THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE GAINED. In fact, I'd argue that if the RO Give the signal to begin, knowing that the competitor's gear was out of spec for that division, they'd share a portion of the fault. (similar to allowing a competitor to begin without hearing protection)

With the single exception of determining the extent of the penalties in faulting a line, the rule book has no wording in it permitting an end run around a rule as long as "no advantage is gained," despite what we hear bandied about at local matches. The rules are the rules. The COF starts at Make Ready. Once you begin to make "outside the rulebook" determinations of how far to enforce the rules, you've enter a slippery slope that, ultimately, puts somebody else who was playing by the rules at a disadvantage.

My CRO mentor, George Jones, was very successful in beating stuff like that out of my hard head and I've taken on the thankless mission of attempting to do likewise for others.

Just like the RO has no responsibility to keep someone from breaking the 180 by shouting "Muzzle," although he can do so, he has no responsibility to correct a competitor's mistake in equipment placement, though he can chose to do so before "Make Ready" if he sees it...but once a stage has been shot, it's too late. Personally, I make it a point to help a newbie before the match and get 'em squared away. It's ultimately the competitors individual responsibility—as it should be—to shoot safely and play by the rules.

 

[Zero.40]

hmmm i remember the time i shot SS..... yep the last time was when i got moved to open b/c of a little part of my pase pad did not want to go in the box. DAMN BOX !!!!! grrrrrr..... and now no more box for me in open.

 

[BayouSlide]

hmmm i remember the time i shot SS..... yep the last time was when i got moved to open b/c of a little part of my pase pad did not want to go in the box. DAMN BOX !!!!! grrrrrr..... and now no more box for me in open.

IIRC that was at Area 4 in 2009. Unfortunately, this illustrates what occurs when we aren't enforcing certain rules or educating competitors on the rules at local matches or Level II matches that are run like local matches...somebody goes to a major match and runs headlong into a rule that been there all along and ends up having to shoot Open with a Singlestack.

Sure, it still would hurt if it happened at a local match. But then it wouldn't have been the nasty surprise that ruined your first Level III, which cost a lot more in $$ and time to attend and where the competitive stakes were higher.

 

[gravityBad]

Sure, it still would hurt if it happened at a local match. But then it wouldn't have been the nasty surprise that ruined your first Level III, which cost a lot more in $$ and time to attend and where the competitive stakes were higher.

Generally w/o fail, I wait for the Make Ready command, draw, get a sight picture, and then retrieve my mag from a pant pocket at what some could say was a mag pocket on or just forward of the hip bone. My first impression was please don't take this too far- its only a local but soon started to think otherwise. I understand the rules need to be enforced and once an exception is made, who's to say what 'interpretation' should be allowed, regardless of advantage gained or not.

The quoted statement is what really hits home.

Back pocket from now on.

 

[spanky]

This is exactly why I added a 6th pouch to my production rig.