Re. Looking for laws...

[Bryan]

I just finished reading the "Looking for laws to help fight harrassment by LEO's: thread. There was a post that I had a question about. Since the thread has been locked, I decided to start a new one to get the answer.




Post #156 By George

"read art 215. if i stop some one ocing and strike up a general conversation i see Hes armed. i can disarm him. then speaking with him say can i check that gun and your background. you say thats not legal? maybe i should have cleared up how i would go about it."


My question is:

If you strike up a "general conversation" with someone who is open carrying, what gives you the right to disarm him?


If you strike up a general conversation with someone who is carrying concealed, you would not have that right.

Per the concealed carry handbook:

"A permittee armed with a handgun shall notify any police officer who approaches the permittee in an official manner or with an identified official purpose that he has a handgun on his person, submit to a pat down, and allow the officer to temporarily disarm him. Failure to comply with this provision shall result in a six-month automatic suspension of the permit."

Striking up a general conversation does not constitute an official manner or an identified official purpose does it?

If it does, every time I spoke to a LEO at the coffee shop or at a gas station, I would have to inform him that I was carrying.

So, if you initiate a general conversation with someone open carrying, you can disarm him without asking his permission to do so if the only reason you are talking to him is because he is open carrying?

I'm not picking on George or any other LEO. I just read this and taking it at face value, it seemed wrong to me.

Am I the only one who thinks this way?

If so, I look forward to being educated.

Bryan

 

[Narco]

An Offical manner would be i.e Traffic Stop, Accident Scene, Crime Scene,. Good rule of thumb any time you would have to be identified by a LEO for offical purposes.

If you consent to a consenual encounter with a LEO, and he ask you if you are armed; and you are with your CCW. You might wanna advise. Again, if you do not want to talk to the police, and there isn't a traffic stop, accident, crime scene, say " Sorry Officer/Deputy/Trooper, dont feel like talking at the moment, thanks for asking " go about your business.


Disclaimer: Although you are giving this thread another try, I see it going to poo poo, in less than 20 posts. I am not a lawyer nor do I pretend to be one on TV. This is my own opinion and should not be taken for factual legal advise. Seek true legal advise from an reputable attorney. Or in this case, any member on this board who bashes the above statement.

 

[Manimal]

I think that's a great question Bryan. I'm looking forward to the answers.

 

[spanky]

I would like to know what's sufficient as far as making the officer aware. Can I just hand my DL & CCW or do I need to verbally announce? I would think the former would be a bit more calming.

 

[George]

I would like to know what's sufficient as far as making the officer aware. Can I just hand my DL & CCW or do I need to verbally announce? I would think the former would be a bit more calming.

because part of the CCW requirement states you will. Remember when an Officer is Present there is always a gun. +1 rule

 

[spanky]

I wasn't asking if I have to. I know I have to. I was asking how. Verbally or by just showing my CCW with my DL.

 

[George]

you should state. "Just to inform you, I have a CCW and I am CC" then state where it is.

 

[Narco]

I generally ask for photo id issued by the State or a passport. If you can't produce one, I advise whomever that it is a crime to false identify yourself to a peace officer, then I ask for their legal name dob and ssn. if they lie, then i have pc for arrest.

 

[Manimal]

That's how you strike up a general conversation with openly carrying individuals, or are you responding to something else?

 

[spanky]

My question was in regards to official capacity (traffic stops, etc). Sorry for the confusion.

 

[George]

here

My question was in regards to official capacity (traffic stops, etc). Sorry for the confusion.

you should state. "Just to inform you, I have a CCW and I am CC" then state where it is.

 

[Bryan]

I understand the official capacity part of the equation (traffic stop etc.). What about an unofficial meeting. Say you are in a coffee shop standing in line and you strike up a conversation with someone about the weather or the previous LSU game. That is not an official capacity. Therefore, I have no obligation to disclose that I am armed.

Take that one step further. Same situation. Standing in line at the coffee shop and I am open carrying. Nothing suspicious about what I am doing. I am patiently waiting in line to buy coffee, clean cut, well dressed. You strike up a conversation about the game and see that I am armed. Do you have the right to disarm and question me?

If so, on what grounds? So far, I haven't broken any laws.

Bryan

 

[Manimal]

Take that one step further. Same situation. Standing in line at the coffee shop and I am open carrying. Nothing suspicious about what I am doing. I am patiently waiting in line to buy coffee, clean cut, well dressed. You strike up a conversation about the game and see that I am armed. Do you have the right to disarm and question me?

If so, on what grounds? So far, I haven't broken any laws.

Bryan

This is what I am waiting to hear an answer on myself.

 

[George]

This is what I am waiting to hear an answer on myself.

 

[Bryan]

George, it is your comment I quoted from the original thread. Is a smilie rolling it's eyes the only answer you have?

I would just like to know your thought process that came up with the comment you made.

I posted this question for discussion. Posting a smilie in response to someone is not a discussion.

I respectfully ask you for your answer if you have one.

Bryan

 

[Slow]

I understand the official capacity part of the equation (traffic stop etc.). What about an unofficial meeting. Say you are in a coffee shop standing in line and you strike up a conversation with someone about the weather or the previous LSU game. That is not an official capacity. Therefore, I have no obligation to disclose that I am armed.

Take that one step further. Same situation. Standing in line at the coffee shop and I am open carrying. Nothing suspicious about what I am doing. I am patiently waiting in line to buy coffee, clean cut, well dressed. You strike up a conversation about the game and see that I am armed. Do you have the right to disarm and question me?

If so, on what grounds? So far, I haven't broken any laws.

Bryan

one would think that a "casual conversation" is just that, a casual conversation. nothing more, nothing less. i would believe if an officer stuck up a causal conversation it wouldnt be any different than jo average doing the same thing. so if you are open carrying or carrying concealed and you are talking to an officer about the weather or who got voted off on american idol then it would be no different than talking to anyone else, atleast thats how i feel about it. now if you start talking about how you are just itching to put a few rounds in the person behind the counter then obviously youre going to have some problems.

so basically if you are not acting shady or like you have been on a week long meth bender then there is no for RS or PC to be confronted in an official manor .

however, rumor has it that i have been wrong before. just my 2cents

 

[Manimal]

Georgey boy, you're so sweet.

So, you have an answer or just trying to stir the pot?

 

[Roadhazzard]

Bryan, I am beginning to suspect that there will be no further substantive comments on this issue by any of the officers participating in this discussion.

If you recall from ....The Other Thread....early on one of the officers, I don't remember which right now, said something to the effect of "...Personally if I see a guy with a gun on his side, HELL YES, im gonna stop hima nd run him for NCIC and Local Warrant as well as check for any Felony Convictions. plus run the gun...." Then later in That Thread that same officer backed off of his statement to a great degree.

Now, after an extended discussion that has not really cleared up much, nothing more useful than a smiley rolling its eyes is forthcoming from the officers participating in the discussion.

I have wondered to myself why the hell the officers have refused to provide any genuinely useful information. I have begun to wonder whether it is that they do not want it on record that they fully intend to consciously disregard the laws of this state. A lawyer would probably call this a Bad Idea. Then if there is a lawsuit if and or when they do so at some time in the future, there will not be a record of their disregard of the law, therefore saving them a bunch of money on their car insurance.

It saddens me that I have to speculate, but in the absence of actual adult discussion I have no choice.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, I am beginning to suspect that there will be no further substantive comments on this issue by any of the officers participating in this discussion.

If you recall from ....The Other Thread....early on one of the officers, I don't remember which right now, said something to the effect of "...Personally if I see a guy with a gun on his side, HELL YES, im gonna stop hima nd run him for NCIC and Local Warrant as well as check for any Felony Convictions. plus run the gun...." Then later in That Thread that same officer backed off of his statement to a great degree.

Now, after an extended discussion that has not really cleared up much, nothing more useful than a smiley rolling its eyes is forthcoming from the officers participating in the discussion.

I have wondered to myself why the hell the officers have refused to provide any genuinely useful information. I have begun to wonder whether it is that they do not want it on record that they fully intend to consciously disregard the laws of this state. A lawyer would probably call this a Bad Idea. Then if there is a lawsuit if and or when they do so at some time in the future, there will not be a record of their disregard of the law, therefore saving them a bunch of money on their car insurance.

It saddens me that I have to speculate, but in the absence of actual adult discussion I have no choice.

Roadhazzard, I hoped that this would not happen. I was really looking forward to discussing this topic. It does seem that some folks are more than willing to throw their opinions around until they are called out about it. I personally try not to make comments in person or on the internet that I am not willing to back up if called to do so. That being said, maybe this thread has given certain people reason to question their original comments and re-think their thought process on the matter. If that is true, then I have accomplished something. It is easy to get lazy and do things, just because you can, or because that is what everyone else is doing. I have been guilty of this myself. Sometimes you have to be reminded that just because it is common practice to act a certain way, does not always mean that it is the right way.

I am not trying to point any fingers or get anyone into trouble. I just think we all need to be reminded that people have rights guaranteed to us by our Founding Fathers. It has become too easy for those in power to deny those rights only to later appologize. It's easy to appologize. It's not as easy to stand up for what is right so you don't have to appologize.

Thank you for those of you who participate on this forum. We ARE on the same team......aren't we?

Bryan

 

[Manimal]

I am not trying to point any fingers or get anyone into trouble. I just think we all need to be reminded that people have rights guaranteed to us by our Founding Fathers. It has become too easy for those in power to deny those rights only to later appologize. It's easy to appologize. It's not as easy to stand up for what is right so you don't have to appologize.

Granted by God or The Creator! Guaranteed by the Constitution!

Everything else, I completely agree.