Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke
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SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
Good vid. Not the best drawstroke for defensive purposes, but there's still a few tips that do transfer.
freedive10
-Global Mod-, Caballoloco
Nate does not like it b/ Ron is using a "100 yr old design made of shitty metal"! LOL!
All kidding aside, I saw this video a while back and it really peeked my interest. Can you guys share why from a fighting standpoint, it would not be the most ideal method? Other than the obvious close retention of the pistol to maintain complete control of it in a gunfight.
Did I miss something regarding the "Pressing out"? I thought Ron was trying get Cory to stop pressing out by using this "Gravity Motion/finger pointing" (or whatever he calls it).
All kidding aside, I saw this video a while back and it really peeked my interest. Can you guys share why from a fighting standpoint, it would not be the most ideal method? Other than the obvious close retention of the pistol to maintain complete control of it in a gunfight.
Did I miss something regarding the "Pressing out"? I thought Ron was trying get Cory to stop pressing out by using this "Gravity Motion/finger pointing" (or whatever he calls it).
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
Weapon retention and retention position shooting should be all the reason you need. His method also allows no options. It's either in the holster or full extension. At close range you're basically handing the BG your gun. The four count drawstroke (or whatever you prefer to call it) offers full retention and multiple positions to shoot from depending on contact distance. Also the method in the video has your support hand floating around which is a great way to shoot yourself.
The four count is not the fastest drawstroke, nor was it ever intended to be. Weapon retention is way more important. I remember Louis Awerbuck (who teaches the four count) saying if you're draw takes less than 1.5 seconds you're probably doing it too fast. Big, stupid and easily repeatable movements work better when under distress.
The video offers some great advice for a competition drawstroke where every millisecond counts and the target isn't trying to bash your head in, but that's about as far as I'd take it.
ETA: As far as the press out specifically, it's basically a side effect of a high retention position. Since the gun is already at your chest at count two there's really nowhere else to go but straight out. It does have the added benefits of easier repeatability, getting the sight picture sooner, and putting the gun on target sooner so you can shoot throughout the press out. Ron is absolutely correct that you shouldn't "jam" the gun out there. However he kinda suggests it's a symptom of pressing out when that's just not true. Every statement he made applies to pressing out as well and there's no reason it needs to be a jerky violent movement like he portrayed it to be.
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When I first started taking training seriously in as much as I can muster, I used to only practice insomuch that my goal was to get to the final step of the #-count draw. I mainly was taught 4 counts, but I understand there are some who go by 5 or something like that. So after a while, my brain started telling me:
"What's with the drawing-to-the-titty stuff if I'm just trying to get out and put rounds on target? Even a stupid toddler knows the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, and will gladly demonstrate that when you put an ice cream cone in front of them." So I started drawing and beginning to sweep up to full extension as soon as I 'cleared leather'. It was still more of an arc, than a straight light, that stayed closer to body, but I started blurring steps 2-3 right into 4. Shooting USPSA also reinforced that bad habit as it never challenged my habits. In USPSA you never have to think about, or worry about retention, and you pretty much always shoot at full extension with targets being decently far away to facilitate that.
But then smarter more experienced people started informing me about the problems inherent with that, and Speedracer + VanillaGorilla already extolled the issues. Eventually I came to the place where I learned /why/ there are multiple "counts" to a draw, even if you don't go "one, two, three, four, pirouette, shoot" or whatever. So now I'm back to drawing "right" which is to not skip the possibility of needing to fire from retention instead of just putting the gun out there right away. And really, the draw isn't much different. Yes, it may be a hundredth of a second slower, or whatever small decimal that the Ron Avery mentions, but what's the trade-off for that time?
Tom Givens puts it in a fun way in that in his study, he's found that if you can induce three "WHAT THE ****?" moments (resetting his OODA loop) in the other, you can win the fight. To me, 'clearing leather' and immediately going to full extension, only to find out you can't afford that space, and having to pull it BACK into a retention position... to me that's giving yourSELF a "what the ****" moment because you just had to reset your OODA loop and start over again. You can't afford that. So having a draw stroke that allows me to act when appropriate without back-pedaling seems more fluid and functional and is actually a /savings/ rather than a /cost/ as Ron Avery purports by only looking at the shot clock alone. Small picture (shot clock) yea, maybe it's better(faster) but big picture, I think it's more costly.
"What's with the drawing-to-the-titty stuff if I'm just trying to get out and put rounds on target? Even a stupid toddler knows the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, and will gladly demonstrate that when you put an ice cream cone in front of them." So I started drawing and beginning to sweep up to full extension as soon as I 'cleared leather'. It was still more of an arc, than a straight light, that stayed closer to body, but I started blurring steps 2-3 right into 4. Shooting USPSA also reinforced that bad habit as it never challenged my habits. In USPSA you never have to think about, or worry about retention, and you pretty much always shoot at full extension with targets being decently far away to facilitate that.
But then smarter more experienced people started informing me about the problems inherent with that, and Speedracer + VanillaGorilla already extolled the issues. Eventually I came to the place where I learned /why/ there are multiple "counts" to a draw, even if you don't go "one, two, three, four, pirouette, shoot" or whatever. So now I'm back to drawing "right" which is to not skip the possibility of needing to fire from retention instead of just putting the gun out there right away. And really, the draw isn't much different. Yes, it may be a hundredth of a second slower, or whatever small decimal that the Ron Avery mentions, but what's the trade-off for that time?
Tom Givens puts it in a fun way in that in his study, he's found that if you can induce three "WHAT THE ****?" moments (resetting his OODA loop) in the other, you can win the fight. To me, 'clearing leather' and immediately going to full extension, only to find out you can't afford that space, and having to pull it BACK into a retention position... to me that's giving yourSELF a "what the ****" moment because you just had to reset your OODA loop and start over again. You can't afford that. So having a draw stroke that allows me to act when appropriate without back-pedaling seems more fluid and functional and is actually a /savings/ rather than a /cost/ as Ron Avery purports by only looking at the shot clock alone. Small picture (shot clock) yea, maybe it's better(faster) but big picture, I think it's more costly.
freedive10
-Global Mod-, Caballoloco
great point!
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
What's the 5 count? Can you describe it? I'd bet it's a variation of the 4 count, or even the same thing by another name.
Edit: nevermind, was actually finding a Gomez video to post and realized he talks about the 5 count.
RIP buddy
And one better demonstrating the 4 count.
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Don't have a video of it, but 1 is support hand to the sternum, strong arm grabs the gun, 2 is draw gun up, 3 is rotate the elbow so the gun is 'aimed' in front of you, next to your chest, optional take the safety off, can fire if close range, 4 strong and support hands meet, 5 is low ready, high ready or extend and shoot/aim (flash sight aiming).
For the record, I am a student, not a firearms expert. I will gladly discuss types of draw and such, but I do not put myself out as an expert. Here to learn. My computer would not play the videos, not sure what is up. Will try them again later.
The last draw on the first video is close, but step 3 is different on the variation I was taught. The gun would be a little lower, angled out from the body so the slide will not hit you, and you would be able to fire at up close and personal range (non aimed shot).
For the record, I am a student, not a firearms expert. I will gladly discuss types of draw and such, but I do not put myself out as an expert. Here to learn. My computer would not play the videos, not sure what is up. Will try them again later.
The last draw on the first video is close, but step 3 is different on the variation I was taught. The gun would be a little lower, angled out from the body so the slide will not hit you, and you would be able to fire at up close and personal range (non aimed shot).
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