Russian ammo , polymer or lacquer?

[Cajun_arShooter]

Hi there I''ve been looking around for some ammo and I always see that there are two types of Brown Bear ,one is polymer and the other is lacquer the later is about 2 cents more per round ,why? Is one better for long term storage? Does one perform better? What are your thoughts ? Thanks .

 

[dwr461]

Polymer is the new lacquer. Both are on the steel case to help prevent moisture from killing the round. They can cause some problems in AR15's for example.

Here's the deal, steel doesn't expand as well as brass to seal the chamber from hot gases. So some hot gases will escape into the chamber but not to the shooter. So you're shooting steel cased ammo from an AR15 and it's working fine. But while it's working fine the inside of the chamber is getting fouled not only with more carbon (etc) it's also getting some residue from the lacquer or polymer than it would from the brass cased ammo. This isn't a problem b/c the steel doesn't seal the chamber as well and doesn't stick to it so no big deal. Then you switch to brass cased ammo without cleaning the weapon well enough or at all. The brass cased ammo DOES expand really well and does seal the chamber tightly. The brass expands into the dirty lacquer/polymer/carbon chamber and sticks fast to it. Then the extractor either rips the bottom of the case off of the round, comes through the rim, or comes over the rim. Either way now you have a problem. You have an empty brass case basically glued into the chamber. It can be removed but the weapon is out of service until then.

The solution is to clean the chamber VERY well between switching from steel cased ammo to brass cased ammo. If you clean ALLl the residue out of the chamber then you shouldn't have the problem.

I understand that lacquer is worse for causing this problem than the polymer.

Steel cased ammo is harder on the extractor as well. Meaning you'd have to have it replaced sooner.

Lastly quality control in Russia isn't as high as the US and their ammo seems to have a higher failure rate than American for example.

Dave

 

[dwr461]

Both seem to do equally well with long term storage.

 

[Sin-ster]

For an AR, I'd avoid the lacquer at all costs. Dave gave you the pertinent details, more or less. (I'd avoid the polymer, too-- the extra few bucks per thousand for zinc plated, like Silver Bear, is WELL worth it in my experience.)

For an AK, get whatever's cheapest-- peasant rifles don't know the difference.

 

[Cajun_arShooter]

I forgot to mention that its for an AK . I do shoot silver bear out of my Ar when I'm going cheap , I usually shoot silver bear out of my AK as well but I'm buying a lot more so the cheaper the better . Thanks for your input . BTW I think silver bear is great stuff for either gun.

 

[ChrisK]

I wondered that too. I never use steel in my ARs. But the AKs love it.

I know the discussion has been on the AR, but doesn't the same thing occur in the AK style weapons too?

 

[Sin-ster]

I forgot to mention that its for an AK . I do shoot silver bear out of my Ar when I'm going cheap , I usually shoot silver bear out of my AK as well but I'm buying a lot more so the cheaper the better . Thanks for your input . BTW I think silver bear is great stuff for either gun.

Agreed, and I too seek out Silver Bear for both the AR and the AK.

Above all, the QC on the rounds seems to be much better than your standard Tula, Wolf, etc. That alone is worth the extra ~$20 per thousand, in my experience.

 

[Sin-ster]

I wondered that too. I never use steel in my ARs. But the AKs love it.

I know the discussion has been on the AR, but doesn't the same thing occur in the AK style weapons too?

Aside from the colorful primer sealant eventually (i.e. tens of thousands of rounds, reportedly) building up in the bolt and carrier, no-- lacquer, polymer, plated or whatever, steel cased ammo doesn't even begin to phase the AK (by itself).

The tolerances are looser, first and foremost; I've also heard some compelling arguments for the actual profile of the case, as well as the rim itself and the AK's extractor making lacquer build up in the chamber a non-issue.

That said... I've never personally even heard of someone running a bunch of steel cased through an AK and following it with brass. Perhaps the same thing might occur...

 

[rrussotwo]

+1 for Silver Bear.

Following Silver Bear with brass just dirties up the extracted brass case.

 

[dwr461]

But you're missing the REAL point. Silver Bear is just fun to say.

Walk up to a gun counter, "I'd like Silver Bear please."

Or a snow ball stand, "I'd like Silver Bear please."

Or a gay club, "I'd like Silver Bear......"

Nevermind, maybe Silver Bear isn't fun to say. From now on I'm buying Brown Bear.

Oh crap that's worse.

Heck I'm sticking with brass.

Dave

 

[Cajun_arShooter]

But you're missing the REAL point. Silver Bear is just fun to say.

Walk up to a gun counter, "I'd like Silver Bear please."

Or a snow ball stand, "I'd like Silver Bear please."

Or a gay club, "I'd like Silver Bear......"

Nevermind, maybe Silver Bear isn't fun to say. From now on I'm buying Brown Bear.

Oh crap that's worse.

Heck I'm sticking with brass.

Dave

Silver bear on the rocks please?
I'll take that over "Gimme a Brown Bear straight up"

IDK where that came from but I think ANY BEAR will do.

 

[dwr461]

Nope sorry I'll only buy milsurp Russian or Barnual from Russia now. No more Bears!

Dave

 

[john17427]

Where does Barnaul fall relative to the Bear's? Better or worse?

 

[Sin-ster]

Where does Barnaul fall relative to the Bear's? Better or worse?

I am 95% certain that the vast quantity of the Bear line comes from the Barnaul plant. As it is recognized as the best (QC wise) of all the Ruskie stuff, it's what I've always sought out.

The 10k or so (mixed .223 and 7.62x39) rounds I've shot and handled have all held to that standard. On the flip, I find one backwards/sideways primer per ~500 in every other lot of Russian rifle ammo I've ever seen-- or worse, as per the bad steel in a batch of Wolf that would subsequently jam up EVERY AR on the planet. Or at least the 5 it was tried in...

BCM, M&P 15, RR, DD and Colt, if anyone's interested...

 

[dwr461]

I've only tried Barnaul in 9x18mm for my Makarov. It was as good as Brown Bear. Does it come from the same factory? I don't know. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that it did. Wolf has been the lowest quality for me.

Dave

 

[JWG223]

Between the two, I much prefer lacquer. The cases are much less likely to rust freckle with humidity. The only reason polymer came about was because of the unfortunate rumor/lie that the lacquer was melting in chambers.