SBR lower help?
- Thread starter Mr.Green
- Start date
The Best online firearms community in Louisiana.
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
Yes.
ETA:
The only legal cases addressing the possession of parts that /could/ be assembled in the form of a unregistered NFA item all include the statement where /nothing else/ could be made from the parts.
If you have an Uzi carbine, and a Uzi pistol barrel, but do not own an Uzi pistol, they have charged people with the illegal transfer/possession of an unregistered SBR. That's a case I've read of.
In the case of Thomspon/Center Contender rifle/pistol kits, where they sell a pistol kit that can also be made into a rifle configuration, it is /possible/ to make it into an illegal SBR by using the pistol barrel and rifle buttstock. However, it has been specifically ruled that mere possession of these parts is not a violation of the law because it is plausible that it is possessed for lawful purposes, and lawful arms can be made from the parts. It's only when the parts have no other suitable purpose than to create an unlawful arm that people get jailed.
It's for those two cases that it seems clear that having an SBR or a pistol lower in the safe would safely provide a defense against you wanting to illegally manufacture SBRs. It gets a little greyer, since I've never seen any case law on AR15s specifically, when you have many stripped lowers, or rifle lowers, and /only/ pistol/SBR length uppers.
Last edited:
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
I never understood that whole thing. Why not just state it as having a 7" upper on the form just to play it safe? Seems like you can go longer but not shorter.
I don't think a barrel shorter than stated on the form is any different than having one that is longer than is stated on the form. As long as you have the original barrel length upper as stated on the form it should be fine. If you permanently change the barrel length (such as get rid of the upper with the original barrel length) then you need to have the form modified. At least that's how it was explained to me which doesn't mean much.
I am under the same impression as bs875, but I've heard it both ways so I won't proclaim confidence...
Calibers... I've seen people rejected for "MULTI" on the paper and I've seen people approved for it. Given the flippy-floppiness of it, I figure it'll get 5.56/.300 and I'll just submit a letter-of-information, or whatever the proper term is, that I intend to use the following additional caliber conversions for the upper, and list everything imaginable. A close friend asked an ATF inspector that once, and that was the reply. It was a "You will be fine using other calibers, but to be on the safe side, it would be nice to have the letter of information on file."
Just... take forum advice for what it is, and consult a /knowledgeable/ dealer, and if all else fails... call the local ATF office, maybe. Of course, we do have knowledgeable NFA dealers on here, so maybe they'll share their experience.
The length on your form serves no legal purpose. It is only to help identify the gun should it become stolen. A registered SBR is legal regardless of the length of the barrel.
To answer the OPs question, yes you can have multiple uppers AS LONG AS you don't have any unregistered lowers laying around. in other words, If you could physically build two SBRs (one registered, one not) with the parts you have in your house then the ATF can prosecute you for constructive possession.
To answer the OPs question, yes you can have multiple uppers AS LONG AS you don't have any unregistered lowers laying around. in other words, If you could physically build two SBRs (one registered, one not) with the parts you have in your house then the ATF can prosecute you for constructive possession.
I don't think that's correct. As long as you have one registered SBR lower the number of uppers does not matter nor does the fact that you have other non-SBR lowers. Having a short upper and no registered lowers is a problem which is why I made a pistol lower until I got my stamp in. I understand what you mean by constructive possession but that would be a tough thing to prove when there is already an SBR and uppers are so easily swapped out. One short upper per registered lower would be the way to play it safe though. Do you know if anyone has been prosecuted for constructed possession based on the number of short uppers versus SBR lowers?
There are numerous constructive possession cases easily found. Most of them involve guys who don't have a registered SBR and are hiding short uppers in their attic. I can't think of any where someone with a legally registered SBR was prosecuted for constructive possession. However, based on how the law reads, my opinion is it could be argued in court against someone with one SBR lower, one unregistered lower, and many short uppers.
From the wiki on CP:
"A person can be charged with constructive possession of an illegal device if they possess the otherwise legal material to assemble it. If a person has in his possession or control the ingredients to make an explosive device, he can be charged with constructive possession of that device."
From the wiki on CP:
"A person can be charged with constructive possession of an illegal device if they possess the otherwise legal material to assemble it. If a person has in his possession or control the ingredients to make an explosive device, he can be charged with constructive possession of that device."
Yes, but like the two cases I found, the judges have rules many times that you it's the fact that /nothing else/ could conceivably be made from the parts except an illegal weapon. It's the fact that /nothing else/ could be made that sealed the conviction. It's not that you could make an illegal weapon... it's if you couldn't make anything BUT an illegal weapon. Otherwise everyone with a pistol and a rifle (AR15s) would be felons, but that isn't the case.
In the case of someone have 2 rifles, 2 rifle lowers, 1 SBR and 5 uppers for the SBR, for example, it's conceivable that all those short barreled uppers are for only that SBR, because it's common to do so, and easy to change uppers on the legal SBR receiver.
If there's case law showing someone convicted of constructive possession where he /could/ have made legal weapons from the parts, I'd be very interested.
Last edited:
Once you have a registered SBR you can put any barrel length on it that you want, provided the change is not permanent, and you retain the components to return it to its original configuration. If this is NOT the case, the BATF suggests that you notify them in writing of the permanent change to your weapon's configuration.
I disagree with the second. I think this is not accurate, AS LONG as you have one SBR lower that is registered, OR the lowers laying around all have >16" uppers.
Otherwise, you could not own any non-registered lowers at all. Because what if you put your NFA upper on the non-registered lower, and the 16" upper on the NFA registered lower? Just swapped uppers.
Yes...you could, and it would be 100% illegal. However...that's just stupid. You obviously use the NFA upper on the registered lower, and so forth. Constructive intent is a gray area, but as long as common sense dictates that you are not doing something illegal (swapping uppers on your NFA/non NFA for example is against common sense/not normal/why the hell?), you will be fine.
Having multiple lowers laying around is okay as long as you can reasonably show that the NFA uppers have a home, and the lowers are just in storage/whatever.
That isn't to say you can have an NFA upper sitting in the safe beside and un-registered lower and nothing else. Yeah, that's obviously constructive intent.
Some of this is just a gray area. Be smart and you will be fine. Be stupid and you will be fined.
Last edited:
I was told by the new LA examiner that as long as you have the original parts to make it the length listed on your form 1, you can have as many uppers in whatever length or caliber you want. The original parts do not have to be in your possession at the time you are using your SBR, just have your paperwork with you. That answers the OP's question.
With that said and as for the rest of the thread drift, it's gets into a gray area to have multiple short uppers with multiple unregistered lowers in the safe together. You should be OK because you have a registered lower. For that to be an issue for you something else bad would have to have happened involving LEO and your stuff. I have never been asked for my "papers" for the entire time I have played in the NFA game (5yrs) and have been to six states with my things.
Hope this helps some.
With that said and as for the rest of the thread drift, it's gets into a gray area to have multiple short uppers with multiple unregistered lowers in the safe together. You should be OK because you have a registered lower. For that to be an issue for you something else bad would have to have happened involving LEO and your stuff. I have never been asked for my "papers" for the entire time I have played in the NFA game (5yrs) and have been to six states with my things.
Hope this helps some.
Exactly. 922r, all that stuff? It's just a stack charge. It's not like you should ignore it, but it's also not like it's going to be the only thing you likely will be worrying about if they nail you for it.
That's what I did, I submitted a 7" barrel even though I had planned to use (and use) an 11.5.
A shorter barrel is a non-issue, as long as the receiver is a legally registered SBR.
If you don't have a 7" barrel to put on that rifle, you have lied about the configuration of the gun. Having a registered 12" barreled rifle, you are not breaking the law by putting an 8" barrel on it, so long as you can return it to its original configuration.
Let me give you an example. I have a registered 11.5" 5.56 AR-15. After building that gun, I purchased parts to build an 8" 300 BLK upper. I also built a 4.5" 22lr upper. I can use any of these uppers on my registered lower. Barrel length on the form doesn't matter. Caliber doesn't matter. The only thing I can't do is sell the 11.5" 5.56 without notifying the ATF of a permenant change. This is consistant with what Cajun_22 said above.
Last edited:
