Shotgun pattern test Cryo

[2ridgebacks]

Ok I know that Benelli is doing this and it works very well but I like to have test results that are specific to my processor. So I processed a Rem 1100 12 ga barrel and choke tube. My friend John patterned it next to a browning A-5 with a custom Hastings Wadlock barrel and a Hastings cryo’d choke. Both chokes are .700 full chokes and the difference is obvious. The pattern on the right is the Rem 100 that I processed and the one on the left is the A-5 with just a cryo'd choke. imagine what the difference would have been compared to a non cryo'd choke. This will translate to bird destroying power, the proof is in the puddin'.

 

[Ritten]

Why not just get a before and after shot through the same barrel? Two different barrels will almost always give you different results no matter what's been done to them. I'm not doubting the performance increase for cryo'ing a barrel (yet) but this isn't proof.

You should have taken a picture of a shot pattern through the 1100 barrel BEFORE the cryo and then you'd have actual measurable improvement.

 

[JBP55]

No before and after but My treated G4 G17 out shot my G3 G34 with every type of ammunition I tried. The G34 from a rest at 75' = 1 13/16" group with 124+P HST and G4 G17 from a rest at 75' = 1 3/16" group with 124+P HST. A friend did the shooting as I have never shot a pistol from a rest and am not back shooting yet.
I agree the best test is a before and after with the same gun and ammunition under the same conditions.

 

[Tulse Luper]

You should have taken a picture of a shot pattern through the 1100 barrel BEFORE the cryo and then you'd have actual measurable improvement.

Precisely, the test means nothing the way it was preformed.

However, a shotgun pattern is an excellent way to see if there is a statistical difference b/w a cryo and a non-cryo barrel if the question is: Does a cryo'ed barrel reduce patten size. Using a shotgun pattern, you don't have to worry about aim, just shoot from the same distance with same ammo in the same conditions. Put 25 rounds through the same barrel (25 cryo and 25 non-cryo), measure the pattern on each, run the numbers through a T-test in excel, and, while not perfect, you'd have something a lot more interesting.

 

[2ridgebacks]

Proof is not what you are looking for, if you were it is out there. University studies, Industrial studies, NASA research all speak of the changes to the metal matrix and surely you do not think all this is changing without any change in the end result. And don't forget that Benelli has researched this exact thing and it is here http://www.benelliusa.com/innovations/crio_system.php
If you want to see that test then bring me your shotgun and we will do just that and I will not even charge you, I am not afraid of the results I know what will happen. Yes it would have been better to do a before and after but I did not do the test and I do not have a non treated shotgun. And if all of this is not enough for you to believe then where is your reasoning to dispute all of this research?

 

[Uncle John]

To tell you the truth I did test a Regular Remington Full choke with no cryo that I did not post it would be to embarissing to Remington. It was much worse than the Browning. I thought I had given the Browning the upper hand with the Hastings Barrel as the Wadlock is well known to shoot tight patterns so the test was loaded against Cryogenics and it won anyway. The Browning also had a cryoed Full choke but the barrel had not been treated. The Remington barrel was 4 inches shorter but both the barrel and Remchoke had been treated. Both chokes were .700 standard Full Choke.. the Remington just flat Kicked Butt.

 

[Uncle John]

Oh I found out something on Benelli their full choke is a little tighter than the standard at .695 enough to tighten it up a bit. The test that I conducted was both .700 Full Choke. For the record a Back Bored Barrel is .710 Full Choke.

 

[Tulse Luper]

I have no reason to dispute what you are doing. In fact, I'm inclined to believe in what you are doing. I spoke with a post-doc at AMRI (Advanced Materials Research Institute) several years ago about cryogenics. He was deep enough into metallurgy to be very credible. The conversation was not about firearms, but there's no doubt cryogenics is valid.

I believe the testimonials you've received. Still, I'd like to see a better test. A little "fun" data can't hurt. The unfortunate part of cryogenics is some have used it to promote snake oil. The best examples are found in the audiophile world. The difference there is the money. I've seen companies that want thousands for cryo'ed speaker cables. Their sites are filled with flowery, audiophile, pseudo-intelligent hogwash. Your company is the polar opposite. Your prices are VERY reasonable, and that makes you more credible to me than the research or testimonials can.

I will do the test at the beginning of the year with an 870 if you agree. I'd be thrilled to try it.

 

[Uncle John]

I can't wait to go to a lucky X turkey shoot with the 1100 it looks so inocent compared to a tricked out turkey gun but just wait. All my turkey chokes for my Remingtons are cryoed too.

Oh by the way I host the largest Turkey Shoot in the State every year, all are invited and Its fun. I have seen the Remingtons shoot for 20 years and the Wadlock Barrel have always had an advantage shooting a tighter pattern with everything, well up until today..

 

[Uncle John]

I have no reason to dispute what you are doing. In fact, I'm inclined to believe in what you are doing. I spoke with a post-doc at AMRI (Advanced Materials Research Institute) several years ago about cryogenics. He was deep enough into metallurgy to be very credible. The conversation was not about firearms, but there's no doubt cryogenics is valid.

I believe the testimonials you've received. Still, I'd like to see a better test. A little "fun" data can't hurt. The unfortunate part of cryogenics is some have used it to promote snake oil. The best examples are found in the audiophile world. The difference there is the money. I've seen companies that want thousands for cryo'ed speaker cables. Their sites are filled with flowery, audiophile, pseudo-intelligent hogwash. Your company is the polar opposite. Your prices are VERY reasonable, and that makes you more credible to me than the research or testimonials can.

I will do the test at the beginning of the year with an 870 if you agree. I'd be thrilled to try it.

Gentlemen you have just seen the perfect example of arguing with a brick wall and saying it is not brick. You could do that test 100 times and still get the same results. As a range master at the Ft Polk shooting complex we do this sort of thing all the time. This time frankly I was stunned, and I'm not at all finished this is just the first one, I was kinda excited. But the results are valid. Prove it to yourself...as they say knock yourself out.

 

[Tulse Luper]

Gentlemen you have just seen the perfect example of arguing with a brick wall and saying it is not brick. You could do that test 100 times and still get the same results. As a range master at the Ft Polk shooting complex we do this sort of thing all the time. This time frankly I was stunned, and I'm not at all finished this is just the first one, I was kinda excited. But the results are valid. Prove it to yourself...as they say knock yourself out.

I'm not sure I understand. What you did was comparison of two guns, not a test.

 

[Ritten]

2ridgebacks and Uncle John.......why all the defense? Nobody here is saying it doesn't work or discrediting your claims. I was just commenting on the OP's last line when he said "...the proof is in the 'puddin." There is no proof in posting two shotgun blasts from different guns and saying that because you cryo'd one it's now tighter.

Like Tulse Luper, I'd like really like to see how much of a difference it would make in a before and after average. I'd be more than happy to bring in a few barrels to post up a differential of before and after.

 

[2ridgebacks]

I have no reason to dispute what you are doing. In fact, I'm inclined to believe in what you are doing. I spoke with a post-doc at AMRI (Advanced Materials Research Institute) several years ago about cryogenics. He was deep enough into metallurgy to be very credible. The conversation was not about firearms, but there's no doubt cryogenics is valid.

I believe the testimonials you've received. Still, I'd like to see a better test. A little "fun" data can't hurt. The unfortunate part of cryogenics is some have used it to promote snake oil. The best examples are found in the audiophile world. The difference there is the money. I've seen companies that want thousands for cryo'ed speaker cables. Their sites are filled with flowery, audiophile, pseudo-intelligent hogwash. Your company is the polar opposite. Your prices are VERY reasonable, and that makes you more credible to me than the research or testimonials can.

I will do the test at the beginning of the year with an 870 if you agree. I'd be thrilled to try it.

Thank you for your kind remarks and I will be happy to process your 870 to test, I am going to process another soon to test as well.
David

 

[2ridgebacks]

Well I do think there is something to say about a A-5 with a high dollar barrel getting spanked by a Rem 1100. I do not think a out of the box 1100 will do that.

Since I have said I will process one for free to demonstrate this I have had 4 volunteers and I will process all of them no problem.

May be I should have a free day for all the skeptics, because no one who has tried it has anything but good things to say about it. I will think about it.

 

[Ton]

in for results. i just dont see it helping out non rifled shotguns. if it does then ill do it to my fn slp in a heart beat.

 

[2ridgebacks]

in for results. i just dont see it helping out non rifled shotguns. if it does then ill do it to my fn slp in a heart beat.

Why don't you think it will help out non-rifled shotguns?

Check out Benelli, they have done more research than anyone about exactly this.

http://www.benelliusa.com/innovations/crio_system.php

 

[Uncle John]

Ok let me back up here and show you a few things about shotguns and why the 1100 worked with the cryogenic treatment. There are three ways you can make a shotgun shoot a tighter pattern. Use a special shell that keeps the muzzel velocity over the speed of sound longer. Use a tighter constricted choke or a special barrel like the Hastings Wadlock. And last use a very slick clean bore.

Up until now the slick clean bore has not been approached other than with tests conducted by Nitro Company Amunition. Since I already conducted a 5 year study on turkey guns using a lot of NCA data I already knew what to expect.

The secret of the 1100 winning the comparision was the fact that the Cryogenic Process made the barrel slicker and cleaner. This was the final step that I needed to find out more about.

I already knew if the choke was .700 and the shell was the same it wouldn't effect the pattern much. The Wadlock barrel has straight lands and groves that should have caused the pattern to be tight as it normally does in the many tests and turkey shoots we have done in the last 20 years at Ft Polk. No Remington, Benelli, Winchester or Browning has ever shown performance like this example in a non backbored barrel. I can also match the performance of a backbored barrel with a standard barrel by using a different techneque.

Just processing the choke only makes the choke last longer and strengthens it, so the Wadlock barrel vs the Cryoed Remington barrel was the real test. The key was in the slick clean cryoed barrel. The Nitro Company have told us this for years but not until now with Cryogenics could we do anything about it that made it better than just normal cleaning.

If you will look at the Remington target you will see a high concintration of shot in the center, this is what the clean barrel does. This is what you want in a long range shotgun ie. a turkey gun. Of course this will work with any shot, but with the turkey gun you know you are only going to get one shot and it must be perfect, see "The Science of The Turkey Gun," at www.foremosthunting.com for more information on how this works and what shot does.

My intentions were to trick Cryogenics with the Wadlock Barrel vs the Cryoed slick barrel but it did not work proving the slick barrel concept really works and the cryo process works. You could go on for ever testing different combinations but the fact remains the same, Tight Choke, Proper shell, slick barrel.

Is there anything wrong with the Wadlock barrel? No wait until you see what it will do after the cryo process. Turkey chokes are going to be even tighter than they ever were.

Without the cryo process I found in a standard Remington 870 Super Magnum a Winchester #4 lead shell in a 3.5 inch will score an average of 12 lethal hits on a turkey head target at 40 yards. Using the same gun with a Nitro Company #4 shell I get an average of 24 lethal hits or twice as much killing power. Thats old news if you read Uncle John, test it yourself.

With the cryo process things will get even better now that we know that we cant fool the slick barrel concept, the final ingredient to the tight shotgun pattern. To get that just send David Minchew your shotgun barrels and all your chokes and watch what happens. Pass it on.

 

[Sigforty]

How far away was the target when you did this patterning test?

 

[Uncle John]

How far away was the target when you did this patterning test?

That is a good question. Normally you test the pattern of a shotgun at 30 yards but my target paper wasnt big enough to catch all the shot. So I backed up to 20 yards. All things being equal it doesnt make any difference, you just get a smaller pattern and you can still see the gaps developing in the pattern.

Benelli did it at 30 yards and got exactly the same results, just a bigger spread.