Should torturing be legal?

[mrdbeau]

Woah, finally...

I was an art student, for heaven's sake!

It shows.

so when we ignore our own Constitutional principles when dealing or treating with non citizens, we WEAKEN the very principles we claim to be defending.

Constitutional "principles" are a very far cry from Constitutional "rights," and you would have to be very dense not to understand that... and I'm betting you do. The "principles" of this country's founding, I would argue, focus on leaving the government the hell alone and then, in turn, the government will not be up in your business all the time. This, to me, is pretty much the same idea that we have pursued with our foreign policy in many regards. Leave the US alone, and we will leave you alone. Jerk us around and kill a bunch of American citizens minding their own business at work, and we're going to kill every single one of you for as long as we can hunt you.

That, in turn, tends to pull the "moral high ground" out from under us like so much cheap carpet, and our status in the world is diminished. I, for one, would rather stand by our principles than sink to the ignominy of those who so despise liberty and freedom of conscience, thank you very much.

That argument is typical of a liberal that believes unless we act absolutely 100% morally justified in everything that we do, we are somehow equal to the people we fight. I tell you what, when we publicly cut off someone's head for adultery or spying or whatever else we think of, I'm not really worried about the US being equated to ANYONE we're fighting.

 

[rockmup]

And that's all I have to say about that.

Thats a shame. For all that babbling, you managed to offer no proof to support your position. Which is fine, I expected nothing less.

 

[Takuan]

TOP TEN MODES OF INTERLOCUTION FAVORED BY MAJORITY OF BS.COM MEMBERS:

1. Name calling!

2. More name calling!

3. Straw man arguments!

4. Hurling thinly veiled (and not so thinly veiled) racist epithets!

5. ad hominem attacks!

6. Appeal to/argument from authority ("I WAS A CON LAW STUDENT, YOU MORON!")

7. No true Scotsman (AKA self-sealing fallacy)!

8. *** Hoc, Ergo Prompter Hoc Fallacy! (Not exactly sure what this is, but it sounds good, so let's throw it in anyway.)

9. Even more name calling!

10. My personal fave: "I can't argue with what you wrote, so I'll rewrite what you wrote and claim that's what you meant, and then I'll attack that!"

 

[Takuan]

... And, after reading and rereading MR. GREAT CON LAW SCHOLAR'S many erudite, well-argued, and invective-free posts, I figure I may as well join in on the fun:

<NOW BLOWING VIRTUAL CIGAR SMOKE AT COMPUTER SCREEN>

 

[mcinfantry]

TOP TEN MODES OF INTERLOCUTION FAVORED BY MAJORITY OF BS.COM MEMBERS:

1. Name calling!

2. More name calling!

3. Straw man arguments!

4. Hurling thinly veiled (and not so thinly veiled) racist epithets!

5. ad hominem attacks!

6. Appeal to/argument from authority ("I WAS A CON LAW STUDENT, YOU MORON!")

7. No true Scotsman (AKA self-sealing fallacy)!

8. *** Hoc, Ergo Prompter Hoc Fallacy! (Not exactly sure what this is, but it sounds good, so let's throw it in anyway.)

9. Even more name calling!

10. My personal fave: "I can't argue with what you wrote, so I'll rewrite what you wrote and claim that's what you meant, and then I'll attack that!"

Takuan, i concur, but as a master of the effect, you specifically left out:

11) smoke
12) mirrors
13) smoke AND mirrors

 

[Bayoupiper]

TOP TEN MODES OF INTERLOCUTION FAVORED BY MAJORITY OF BS.COM MEMBERS:

1. Name calling!

2. More name calling!

3. Straw man arguments!

4. Hurling thinly veiled (and not so thinly veiled) racist epithets!

5. ad hominem attacks!

6. Appeal to/argument from authority ("I WAS A CON LAW STUDENT, YOU MORON!")

7. No true Scotsman (AKA self-sealing fallacy)!

8. *** Hoc, Ergo Prompter Hoc Fallacy! (Not exactly sure what this is, but it sounds good, so let's throw it in anyway.)

9. Even more name calling!

10. My personal fave: "I can't argue with what you wrote, so I'll rewrite what you wrote and claim that's what you meant, and then I'll attack that!"

Don't overlook the importance of sarcasm!




.

 

[Manimal]

TOP TEN MODES OF INTERLOCUTION FAVORED BY MAJORITY OF BS.COM MEMBERS:

1. Name calling!

2. More name calling!

3. Straw man arguments!

4. Hurling thinly veiled (and not so thinly veiled) racist epithets!

5. ad hominem attacks!

6. Appeal to/argument from authority ("I WAS A CON LAW STUDENT, YOU MORON!")

7. No true Scotsman (AKA self-sealing fallacy)!

8. *** Hoc, Ergo Prompter Hoc Fallacy! (Not exactly sure what this is, but it sounds good, so let's throw it in anyway.)

9. Even more name calling!

10. My personal fave: "I can't argue with what you wrote, so I'll rewrite what you wrote and claim that's what you meant, and then I'll attack that!"

I'm glad that those don't apply to me. I am just a stubborn ******* that likes a good debate/argument.

 

[mrdbeau]

4. Hurling thinly veiled (and not so thinly veiled) racist epithets!

I was under the impression it was you attempting to imply that someone on here was racist.

6. Appeal to/argument from authority ("I WAS A CON LAW STUDENT, YOU MORON!")

I have never called you a moron.

8. *** Hoc, Ergo Prompter Hoc Fallacy! (Not exactly sure what this is, but it sounds good, so let's throw it in anyway.)

You don't really know what most of these logical fallacies are, do you? I mean, just admit that you found this list on yahoo somewhere.

But on a more serious note, if I thought that you could actually hold a logical discussion, I'd attempt it. In a matter of just a few posts in this thread, you have proven yourself completely incapable of doing so. I was civil to you at first, but once it becomes clear we're not actually going to have a discussion about a topic, I may as well just call you a dipshit and move on.

 

[Takuan]

Takuan, i concur, but as a master of the effect, you specifically left out:

11) smoke
12) mirrors
13) smoke AND mirrors

But if you're an "originalist," and the list is not a "living document," it can't be amended!

 

[mcinfantry]

According to many former CIA guys (and others who claim firsthand experience on both sides of the equation), torture (like waterboarding) just doesn't work... people will say anything they think you want to hear, so not much value there.

So that only leaves torture as a means of exacting vengeance.

From a legal standpoint, most forms of torture (including waterboarding) are outlawed by the Geneva Convention. At the behest of the United States, those who engaged in torture (waterboarding included) during WWII were prosecuted... notably Germans and Japanese.

As for those who say Constitutional guarantees don't extend to non citizens, an argument can be made that they should... that seemed to be the view expressed by the majority of Founding Fathers.

lets do the math game. i believe majority is 3/4 or 75% what is your definition of majority? 51%. can you provide me a list of 51% echoing your statement?

YOU said the above bolded text.

 

[mcinfantry]

But if you're an "originalist," and the list is not a "living document," it can't be amended!

quite the contrary. i READILY admit it is a living document. hence "majority" rules and the "majority" can and does change.

which are you???

 

[Takuan]

Honestly, mrdbeau, whenever I read another of your very, very earnest and very, very angry posts, all that pops into my head is the line from "Good Morning, Vietnam":

"You are in more dire need of a..."

(Oh, never mind.)

 

[Takuan]

quite the contrary. i READILY admit it is a living document. hence "majority" rules and the "majority" can and does change.

which are you???

I'm a "Humo(u)rist."

 

[jlong]

He's a lib. Leftist lib, he played the race card. Time to lawyer up, maybe I'll call the new sponsor.

We need another Ronald Reagan for president. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Takuan]

14. If you don't immediately assent to my position and agree with me, why you're just a... a... a LIB! A LEFTEST LIB!

15. I'm gonna "lawyer up" and sue you for... for... for something!

 

[jlong]

Well according to the DHS, I am a racist, right extremist, so fear me.

 

[Takuan]

Well according to the DHS, I am a racist, right extremist, so fear me.

Funny you should post this just now. As it happens, I'm actually a deep cover LEFTY LIB operative on a conference call with Sec. Napolitano, Field Marshall George Soros, and District Commander Bill Maher... They want to know where you live!

 

[dashzero]

Irish for Swampy

*.*


Come one waiting for answer....

The Irish had magical Leprechaun Powers. By chasing out the snakes from Ireland, St. Patrick effective transfered the magical powers to the TV Evangelists. However, these magical powers had not the ability to rejuvenate. Hence no one has magic very much anymore. Heck even my midget friend (3' 11") Tony Torres (Koko the Killer Clown, Coney Island) has no more magic.

 

[Manimal]

The Irish had magical Leprechaun Powers. By chasing out the snakes from Ireland, St. Patrick effective transfered the magical powers to the TV Evangelists. However, these magical powers had not the ability to rejuvenate. Hence no one has magic very much anymore. Heck even my midget friend (3' 11") Tony Torres (Koko the Killer Clown, Coney Island) has no more magic.

 

[CajunTim]

" all men are created equal, unfortunately, a vagina, or the tint of their skin makes them inferior, to my white male land owning ass"