standby generator

[Isaac-1]

It may just be me, but the low end Gaurdian, etc. generators I know of tend to all have lots of problems. There is one (10-12KW 5 year old Guardian with automatic transfer switch) at my wife's work used to back up the phone system and computers that has been nothing but trouble, it is constantly requiring service calls due to failure to start on its weekly exercise runs (at least 4-6 times per year), out of the half dozen or so outages they have experienced since installing it, it has failed to start over half the time, and on at least one occasion the transfer switch failed to transfer. On multiple time it has started its weekly exercise and failed to turn off running up lots of extra hours until someone happens to walk behind the building to find it running days later. I know of several other people with similar experiences wit these consumer grade generators. By comparison I placed a 20 year old used industrial grade Kohler diesel generator with 3300 run time hours (30ROZJ with Decision Maker 3 controller) at my elderly mother's house, and you flip the switch and it just works. At work we have an older Onan 125.0DYD and guess what, it just works also.

 

[derf]

Like he said

The point that I don't understand is why people buy these generators with failure prone cheap computer controlled transfer switches, I much prefer the idea of a manual start generator with a manual (prefer knife blade double throw) transfer switch. Mine is a military surplus 3KW (anyone else would rate it at 4.5KW+) diesel generator (MEP-701a), bought it off Goverment Liquidation a couple of years ago for $450, it will run all the important stuff (refrigerator, freezer, some lights, tv, computer, as well as the 8,000 btu window airconditioner in my utlility room, and the 11,000 BTU room portable air conditioner I bought just for outages) this lets me keep the bedrooms and food cool and only consume a maxiumum of .5 Gal/Hour (that is over 100 hours of run connected to a 55 gallon drum of cheaper offroad diesel), is rated at full output 24x7 unlike the optimisitc standby ratings on many residential units, and has a real pressurized oil system with 125 hours between oil changes. Note I do have a gas stove/oven and gas central heat only needing electricity for the blower fan in the winter.

Ike

Hey, Isaac, how you doin?

BTW, I have a MEP-701A for sale at this moment if anyone is interested. Asking $800. Will consider trade offers.

 

[derf]

It may just be me, but the low end Gaurdian, etc. generators I know of tend to all have lots of problems. There is one (10-12KW 5 year old Guardian with automatic transfer switch) at my wife's work used to back up the phone system and computers that has been nothing but trouble, it is constantly requiring service calls due to failure to start on its weekly exercise runs (at least 4-6 times per year), out of the half dozen or so outages they have experienced since installing it, it has failed to start over half the time, and on at least one occasion the transfer switch failed to transfer. On multiple time it has started its weekly exercise and failed to turn off running up lots of extra hours until someone happens to walk behind the building to find it running days later. I know of several other people with similar experiences wit these consumer grade generators. By comparison I placed a 20 year old used industrial grade Kohler diesel generator with 3300 run time hours (30ROZJ with Decision Maker 3 controller) at my elderly mother's house, and you flip the switch and it just works. At work we have an older Onan 125.0DYD and guess what, it just works also.

Yes. If they sell it at Home Depot it is more or less disposable. You will be lucky to get 1000 hours out of a portable generator from a Home Depot type place. Military surplus, Onan, and a few others will last thousands of hours and after that they can be rebuilt to go another many thousands. Diesel leads in economy, IMHO, and Natural Gas leads in convenience. NG is expensive, though, and may be subject to outage in severe situations.

 

[Barney88PDC]

IMO NG is a risk because you are dependent on someone else for your fuel source. If the neighbors tree up roots and breaks the line then you have an 8k dollar yard ornament. Another issue I have heard (and it may not be warranted) is that if several people in a neighborhood have them and they are all trying to come on at the same time the main line doesn't have the pressure / volume to supply all of the units. I personally would only feel comfortable if I had a bulk propane tank if I went the NG route. Personally I went Diesel and the fuel is not a problem for me to get.

 

[Isaac-1]

The problem with Natural gas has already been mentioned

The thing I don't like about propane is you can't go to the corner store and buy more of it (at least not in useful quantities). My inlaws have a house just outside of Lake Charles with propane for heat, hot water, and cooking, they were low on propane when Hurricane Rita hit 6 years ago (They ordered more to be delivered the week before the storm, but it was not delivered in time), as it turns out it took them almost 3 weeks after the storm to get a propane delivery and that one came on a Saturday afternoon, thankfully the house survived just minus some siding and roofing. First all the propane suppliers employees had to make it back after evacuating the area, then they were busy resuppling propane to priority customers with generators (which is only going to be worse next time around as Louisiana now has a law that you can't install large diesel tanks within 300 feet of a water well so all public water works are switching to natural gas or propane generators).

That leaves gasoline and diesel, and gasoline has a short storage life, where if sealed from contact with moisture in the air diesel can last for decades.

Ike

 

[smith625]

You get what you pay for, generators guns etc. IMHO commercial would be the way to go. I too have worked on the homeline stuff and was very unimpressed.

 

[El Rubio]

You certainly do get what you pay for but just as a Ruger is cheaper than an HK, it doesn't mean you can only rely upon one. Diesel generators are the choice of commercial operators because of low maintenance and durability. Larger diesel generators typical run at 1800 rpm and are liquid cooled where most residential generators are running at twice that speed 3600rpm and air cooled. Natural gas isn't expensive and of all the major fuel types, is probably the cheapest. Diesel is over $3.50 a gallon now and would be difficult to find after a storm. I have a portable generator described in an earlier post in this thread. It can't compare to a commercial diesel in performance but didn't cost an arm and leg to sit parked on the side of the house. I've had my setup for over two years now and have used it once besides test runs. I never lost natural gas in Ponchatoula nor at my parents' home in Metairie after Katrina. Sure, a tree or something could disrupt the buried gas lines but that is not very likely. NG is a cheap clean burning fuel that has it's own advantages. The number one being the fuel is not limited to what you can keep around in drums or locate during tough times. It is easier to store than gasoline, but still must be maintained. In general, NG service has proven to be very reliable. For some of us, the cost of a portable unit and the availability of NG outweighs the performance advantage of a commercial grade diesel.

 

[toddrod]

For me, my answer was a trifuel generator. I have a 8KW gasoline generator that I added a propane/NG conversion kit on to. I ran that thing for 5 days straight after Gustave and it only cost $50 in NG.

 

[dantheman]

As far as the smaller portable generators go , do the maintenance . Change the oil often . Dirty air filters usually aren't an issue , but keep a check on them . Keep the fuel fresh and use a fuel stabilizer . They'll do ok .

 

[El Rubio]

As far as the smaller portable generators go , do the maintenance . Change the oil often . Dirty air filters usually aren't an issue , but keep a check on them . Keep the fuel fresh and use a fuel stabilizer . They'll do ok .

This is what the generator mechanics at work say.

 

[dantheman]

It seems like fuel / carburetors are the main failure point for small gas engines . Some folks like to run them dry between uses , but I'm on the other end of the spectrum . I run all of my small engines , generator , mowers , etc. at least every 2-3 weeks year round . Whatever works for you . Some people don't like fooling with them .

 

[PrairieCajun]

For all of the negative talk about small NG Generac, etc. I am more than pleased with mine. We had a 23 hour outage a month ago from a normal thunderstorm (the only one since it was installed after Gustav). We are not in a flood prone area and the street is many feet below the level of my generator. I was thinking that I was gonna have to barricade my home from neighbors if the outage went on much longer. We didn't know how good it could be when you don't have to think about a thing with an outage that long and I still have 100+ hours before I even have to change the oil again. If the generator wasn't a gift, I don't know if I'd spend that much money on it, but I can say if we lived where we experienced frequent small outages (5-6 hours) like we used to before Gustav forced Entergy to upgrade our crappy infrastructure, I can say it would change your quality of life.

 

[rich]

I had a 22kw water cooled quiet source (1800 rpm) generac installed almost two years ago. Purchase price about $7500 and about $500 for electrical contractor installation. I ran and hooked up the gas line. I also installed a double pole single throw switch inside the house. This switch makes and breaks the fuses inside the ATS and enables me to run the gen on full house load any time I want and for as long as I want. I usually run the gen loaded for an hour a week. This exercises the gen and the ATS system and insures that the gen will be ready when really needed. The weekly 12 minute unloaded run does not exercise the ATS at all and the 12 minute run is not long enough to get the motor hot. That is why I installed the double pole single throw switch. The next thing I will do is install a 24hr/7day timer with battery backup. This will automatically start and stop the gen weekly in a loaded state through the transfer switch instantly without power interruption and result in no blinking digital clocks. I've been doing this for about 6 months and gives me confidence that the gen will work when needed. This gen is an excellent unit and has not given me a single problem. I have read a few bad reviews on generac. I guess you can find something bad about any gen manufacturer if you look hard enough. I chose the 1800 water cooled rpm model because most other gens are air cooled and turn 3600 rpm. This equivalent to running you automobile at 110 mph for 24hrs per day whereas if your gen turns 1800 rpm you're cruising at a leasurely 55mph. This unit powers all my ACs, electric dryer,microwave etc. all at once and has power to spare for my neighbors (2) extension cords to run their refrigerators etc. It is a 46hp 2.6 liter inline 4 cylinder and is only slightly noisier than my central ac unit. I Love It

 

[derf]

I had a 22kw water cooled quiet source (1800 rpm) generac installed almost two years ago. Purchase price about $7500 and about $500 for electrical contractor installation. I ran and hooked up the gas line. I also installed a double pole single throw switch inside the house. This switch makes and breaks the fuses inside the ATS and enables me to run the gen on full house load any time I want and for as long as I want. I usually run the gen loaded for an hour a week. This exercises the gen and the ATS system and insures that the gen will be ready when really needed. The weekly 12 minute unloaded run does not exercise the ATS at all and the 12 minute run is not long enough to get the motor hot. That is why I installed the double pole single throw switch. The next thing I will do is install a 24hr/7day timer with battery backup. This will automatically start and stop the gen weekly in a loaded state through the transfer switch instantly without power interruption and result in no blinking digital clocks. I've been doing this for about 6 months and gives me confidence that the gen will work when needed. This gen is an excellent unit and has not given me a single problem. I have read a few bad reviews on generac. I guess you can find something bad about any gen manufacturer if you look hard enough. I chose the 1800 water cooled rpm model because most other gens are air cooled and turn 3600 rpm. This equivalent to running you automobile at 110 mph for 24hrs per day whereas if your gen turns 1800 rpm you're cruising at a leasurely 55mph. This unit powers all my ACs, electric dryer,microwave etc. all at once and has power to spare for my neighbors (2) extension cords to run their refrigerators etc. It is a 46hp 2.6 liter inline 4 cylinder and is only slightly noisier than my central ac unit. I Love It

What kind of consumption are you getting and how much to run the unit per hour?

 

[derf]

Keep in mind that running a tri-fuel on gas gives your rated output, but running it on LPG (Propane) only gives you 90% rated output, and running on NG only gives you 80% rated output from the gen.
Also, it will use about 1.3 gallons of LPG per hour vs. 1 gallon of gasoline and can only make 90% rated power on LPG.
That's about 30% more fuel to make 10% less power.
The cost comparison between gasoline and NG is harder to nail down, but something you should consider before buying a gen.
People who sell conversion kits and/or tri-fuel gens don't usually mention this. Although, quality manufacturers (like Winco) list the specs so you can plainly see.

 

[El Rubio]

Keep in mind that running a tri-fuel on gas gives your rated output, but running it on LPG (Propane) only gives you 90% rated output, and running on NG only gives you 80% rated output from the gen.
Also, it will use about 1.3 gallons of LPG per hour vs. 1 gallon of gasoline and can only make 90% rated power on LPG.
That's about 30% more fuel to make 10% less power.
The cost comparison between gasoline and NG is harder to nail down, but something you should consider before buying a gen.
People who sell conversion kits and/or tri-fuel gens don't usually mention this. Although, quality manufacturers (like Winco) list the specs so you can plainly see.

This isn't entirely true. It depends upon the engine, intake, and a few other factors. LP & NG are true vapors and are more efficiently delivered to the combustion chamber. Tri-fuel generators, when adjusted for the fuel, can usually make rated output on LP or NG. My converted 7kw generator makes full output on NG. Even if there's a drop-off, which is possible in some generators, there are other factors which far outweigh a small decrease in power. Those would be availability of fuel, cost of fuel, and engine/fuel maintenance. Propane is easily stored in fairly large quantities and requires zero maintenance. NG is rarely disrupted and much safer & cheaper than gasoline or LP per BTU. The engines run much cleaner and fuel will never gum up the carburetor.
After Katrina, at least in Ponchatoula/Hammond, gasoline was hard to find for about a week and then when it was more available, the price sky rocketed. I lost commercial power for 3 weeks. Based upon that scenario, I had calculated run cost on NG to be about 1/4 that of gasoline with less maintenance and less reliance on hard to find fuel. To run my generator at full load on NG, uses about 1.4 ccf @ $0.70 per ccf ( last time I checked the price) and 1.25 gallons of gasoline @ $3.50 per gal. One is less than $1 per hour and the other is >$4 plus the stabilizer, remembering to run the gasoline out of the carb, etc. It was a no-brainer for me. Convenience or a few hundred watts of capacity? I take convenience, but the possible drop-off should be considered and buying a 7kw instead of a 6kw would cover you just in case.

 

[PrairieCajun]

I had a 22kw water cooled quiet source (1800 rpm) generac installed almost two years ago. Purchase price about $7500 and about $500 for electrical contractor installation. I ran and hooked up the gas line. I also installed a double pole single throw switch inside the house. This switch makes and breaks the fuses inside the ATS and enables me to run the gen on full house load any time I want and for as long as I want. I usually run the gen loaded for an hour a week. This exercises the gen and the ATS system and insures that the gen will be ready when really needed. The weekly 12 minute unloaded run does not exercise the ATS at all and the 12 minute run is not long enough to get the motor hot. That is why I installed the double pole single throw switch. The next thing I will do is install a 24hr/7day timer with battery backup. This will automatically start and stop the gen weekly in a loaded state through the transfer switch instantly without power interruption and result in no blinking digital clocks. I've been doing this for about 6 months and gives me confidence that the gen will work when needed. This gen is an excellent unit and has not given me a single problem. I have read a few bad reviews on generac. I guess you can find something bad about any gen manufacturer if you look hard enough. I chose the 1800 water cooled rpm model because most other gens are air cooled and turn 3600 rpm. This equivalent to running you automobile at 110 mph for 24hrs per day whereas if your gen turns 1800 rpm you're cruising at a leasurely 55mph. This unit powers all my ACs, electric dryer,microwave etc. all at once and has power to spare for my neighbors (2) extension cords to run their refrigerators etc. It is a 46hp 2.6 liter inline 4 cylinder and is only slightly noisier than my central ac unit. I Love It

My Father sells these and has had one just like yours(22k water cooled radiator) for 10+ years without any problems. His has the exercise timer and ran for a week or so back before Katrina from a storm that hit Acadiana (don't remember the name) and has taken care of them many times since. I'm not a huge advocate for Generac or any other brand, but a standby is really a nice thing to have even if you're not a wealthy guy but own a home and appreciate true creature comfort despite the circumstances.

 

[carlosd321]

Here recently I went with a GE 20KW I thing its actually 17KW for NG. I chose NG because if my family should actually need it I will likely not be here and I dont want them to have to deal with tracking down fuel etc. Mine was about 4 grand for the generator and almost another 4 for the install. My issue was that the gas meter and electric ,eter are on opposite sides of the house so the cost for materials went up. Also withsome brands like GE and Kohler if you do not have it installed or initially started by one of their authorized reps you void the warranty, they both come with a five year warranty. Some of you may have saw that I had a fire sale on here to help pay for some of the cost. Thanks to all for the help.

 

[simplepeddler]

That's a nice unit that will serve you well.......

 

[carlosd321]

Thanks I hope so, so far so good.