State to state FTF transactions- need statues

[edman87k5]

Having a discussion with someone and need the proof.
I say you cannot sell any firearm to a resident of another state in a face to face transaction without using a FFL and 4473, he claims it is only the case for pistols.
Can anyone give me the links to the actual laws?

 

[sportsbud]

Im trying to find the statues myself, but a firearms transaction between two citizens of different states is a interstate transaction and you will fall under both state and federal regulations, and according to the feds any interstate firearms transaction needs to go through a FFL that means if you a LA citizen and buy a firearm from a KY resident it needs to go thorough an FFL, now you can buy long guns in out of state FFL's but not handguns, that is a federal thing, unless your state prohibits it...

Just look up GCA of 1968 it will be in there...

 

[sportsbud]

Somewhere in here its from 2005 but alot of info

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf


My god the CGA of 1968 is BS some serious issues with how they restrict everything! that shiza needs to go!

 

[edman87k5]

I know this, but trying To find documentation.
Guy I am discussing with is a ms resident and says he has talked to the Jackson ms ATF office and they claim he can do a private sale of a long gun with la residents without involving an FFL.
I know it is wrong, just need the proof. Like what part of the 86gca to quote to prove my case.

 

[Hitman]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

 

[sportsbud]

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

 

[edman87k5]

Thanks found it page 176.

 

[Hitman]

Thanks found it page 176.

Post #5

 

[edman87k5]

I am on my iPhone, sorting thru stuff doesn't happen real fast. And I wanted a link to the fed publication and page number to forward to the guy.
Thanks everyone for the quick response.

 

[MyTFAL]

Pistols have to ship to a FFL across state lines, long guns can be done FTF at a FFL.

 

[bs875]

Pistols have to ship to a FFL across state lines, long guns can be done FTF at a FFL.

I think you made up the part about pistols having to be shipped but I will publicly eat crow if you can show where it says that. All types of firearms transferred between citizens of other states must be done through an FFL as Hitman noted.

 

[MyTFAL]

ATF frequently asked questions....

: What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are *same-State* residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer’s State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3.

 

[MyTFAL]

Post from Smith and Wesson forum not a certified source,but it jibes with my understanding......


If you are a non-licensee (you have no FFL) it is my understanding that you may not purchase a handgun across State lines without going through a dealer/FFL. Additionally, you cannot travel to another State and purchase a handgun and then transport it back into your State.

Per Federal Regulations, across-State-Line purchases of handguns must go something like this (Sate laws vary wildly):

1) The handgun has to be shipped to a dealer/FFL in the State of the buyer. It is not required that the shipper be an FFL, a private citizen can ship a handgun. The USPS will not accept a handgun for mailing by a non-dealer. The only options available are FedEx and UPS. Both of these private carriers require overnight shipping for handguns.

2) Once the handgun is at the dealer in the State that the Buyer lives in, he can walk in and purchase the handgun just like any other handgun that dealer has.

A couple things important to note: Some dealers do not accept firearms from non-dealers. They insist that you use a dealer to send a firearm (and in some States, it might even be that State's law that all shipments of firearms come from a dealer out-of-State)
C&R firearms are different. If you have a C&R FFL and are buying a C&R handgun, that handgun can be shipped directly to you (by Federal standards, State laws may vary) Shipping C&R handguns is interesting. The PO regulation does not say that "it's OK to ship from an FFL holder to an FFL holder" The regulations specifically use the word 'dealer' ..... well - as an 03/FFL you know that you aren't a 'dealer' My local postmaster believes that an FFL is an FFL and he says you can ship C&R eligible handguns as an 03/FFL using the Post Office - I don't think that's true and the once or twice I have shipped a C&R handgun, I have either used UPS, or I went to my local gun shop and hsd him put the gun in his books and shipped from a 'dealer' to another dealer. To me - it's best not to tempt fate. I bet I could have used the PO with no problem, but if the package got lost or stolen and I had to file a claim, that would not stay at the level of my local postmaster (that said it was OK) and I don't want to end up in a cell somewhere holding the bars saying, "But the postmaster said I could!"

Long arms have a whole different set of rules!


Also........


Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

All sales across a state line require some FFL involvement to be legal.

 

[bs875]

ATF frequently asked questions....

: What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?

Post from Smith and Wesson forum not a certified source,but it jibes with my understanding......

Neither of the referenced pages say that a handgun must be shipped to the FFL. You can walk the handgun into the out of state FFL and do the transaction FTF just like you can with a long gun.

ETA: In writing my response I may have figured out the disconnect in what we are saying. I'm thinking of, as an example, a seller in LA (edman87k5) with a buyer in MS (or any other state) doing the transaction in MS. In that case either a long gun or a hand gun could be walked into the MS FFL and the transaction done there. I think you are having it the other way where the MS buyer is coming to LA for the sale. In that case a long gun could be done FTF at a LA FFL but a handgun could not because a buyer may only buy a handgun in their own state of residence. So if the LA seller is not willing to drive to MS then the handgun would have to be shipped to the MS FFL even if the MS buyer was willing to come to LA for the sale.

 

[MyTFAL]

I think you made up the part about pistols having to be shipped but I will publicly eat crow if you can show where it says that. All types of firearms transferred between citizens of other states must be done through an FFL as Hitman noted.

 

[MyTFAL]

Neither of the referenced pages say that a handgun must be shipped to the FFL. You can walk the handgun into the out of state FFL and do the transaction FTF just like you can with a long gun.

ETA: In writing my response I may have figured out the disconnect in what we are saying. I'm thinking of, as an example, a seller in LA (edman87k5) with a buyer in MS (or any other state) doing the transaction in MS. In that case either a long gun or a hand gun could be walked into the MS FFL and the transaction done there. I think you are having it the other way where the MS buyer is coming to LA for the sale. In that case a long gun could be done FTF at a LA FFL but a handgun could not because a buyer may only buy a handgun in their own state of residence. So if the LA seller is not willing to drive to MS then the handgun would have to be shipped to the MS FFL even if the MS buyer was willing to come to LA for the sale.

Actually I Don't believe a Handgun can be transported across state lines for the purpose of sale, a handgun must be shipped across state lines to a FFL.

 

[bs875]

Nope, because...

Actually I Don't believe a Handgun can be transported across state lines for the purpose of sale, a handgun must be shipped across state lines to a FFL.

...we are back to what I thought you were originally saying. Show me where what you said is correct and then I'll get a fork.

 

[MyTFAL]

I'm not saying it's right or it makes sense but that's the way it is. I am recruiting on board FFL's to comment we will see what they say, but you can't walk a La. gun into a Ms. FFL and do a transfer. He can ship it to a Ms. FFL and it's all fine and dandy. Get the salt and pepper ready......

 

[JoeRoache]

I'll share my experience here as I've called the ATF about this same situation. Assuming the state of sale is LA, in essence it breaks down to the following:

Handguns - FTF only to a resident of LA. Even Gun Shops will not sell handguns to an out of state resident. They can however, transfer it through an FFL in the buyer's home state.

Long guns - Not so clear as Some states (texas and mississippi) allow LA residents to buy long guns there, and vice versa. I've been to the Mississippi gun show, and they were willing to sell me a shotgun FTF.

Now, I hope I don't get any flak from this, but when in doubt, just ask the ATF. I've done it a couple of times and have always found them to be pleasant.

Remember if something is questionable, err on the side of caution and CYA. I share my experience and suggestion, and that is all it is. In the end you're responsible for making sure you follow the law.

 

[bs875]

I'm not saying it's right or it makes sense but that's the way it is. I am recruiting on board FFL's to comment we will see what they say, but you can't walk a La. gun into a Ms. FFL and do a transfer. He can ship it to a Ms. FFL and it's all fine and dandy. Get the salt and pepper ready......

The opinion of others is fine but I want to see it written in the regulations. I've talked to several FFL holders who have told me you can do a FTF transaction with an out of state resident, no FFL required, which is not true at all. So holding an FFL does not mean you know all the rules.

Handguns - FTF only to a resident of LA. Even Gun Shops will not sell handguns to an out of state resident. They can however, transfer it through an FFL in the buyer's home state.

Long guns - Not so clear as Some states (texas and mississippi) allow LA residents to buy long guns there, and vice versa. I've been to the Mississippi gun show, and they were willing to sell me a shotgun FTF.

The part about handguns is correct. From a federal standpoint the part about long guns is unambiguous. You can buy a long gun from any FFL in any state. Whether there are state to state regulations that are more restrictive I don't know. An FFL can also decide they just don't want to sell it to an out of state resident but that doesn't mean it's because it is illegal to do so.