Stopping a Crime in Progress??

[Quickdraw22]

Recently, I've been trying to play out as many hypothetical situations in my head as possible that refer to using a firearm for self defense. After reading the "Rambo Granny" article, this ran through my head.

So, here's the situation-

You're sitting in the middle of Da Ghetto second in line at a stoplight. 2 thuglets walk up to the first car, look for bystanders, yank open the doors, and start beating the occupants. For the sake of the story, the occupants are 2 White women.

The BG's are trying to get the seatbelts undone so they can steal the car - the women are resisting. They are still beating the occupants.

What are the possible options??

-I could attempt to run them over, but this would also risk injuring the driver.
-Since "warning shots" are more dangerous than actual placed shots, those would not be used.
-The only option to end the carjacking would be to eliminate the BG's.

NOW - Would I be held liable for saving the life of another? Would this be considered a homicide, even though I was protecting the 2 women?

DAVE

 

[ram03reg]

IMO you would be right in defending the women.

Before you take your gun out and start shooting you could just lay on your horn and see if they would run but that is just an idea to think of before you shoot. Your weapon should be your LAST resort.

 

[jgreco15]

i would draw my gun, take aim and let them know that if they did not stop immeadiatly i would take action. all the while, if either of your BGs hinted at drawing weapons of their own, shots would be fired and i wouldn't be the one who would be getting shot.

 

[Pacioli]

The law is pretty clear on this, IMO.
RS 14:22
"It is justifiable to use force or to kill in the defense of another person when it is reasonbly apparent that the person attacked could have justifiably used such means himself, and when it is reasonably believed that such intervention in necessary to protect the other person."

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. I have only typed the law as printed in the CHP blue book.

If you're going to carry a gun, you must educate yourself on the law. Otherwise you will get yourself in a whole lot of trouble.

 

[JadeRaven]

NOW - Would I be held liable for saving the life of another? Would this be considered a homicide, even though I was protecting the 2 women?

Killing another person, period, is homicide, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily murder/manslaughter/negligent/etc.

That's what nolacopusmc says, and I think it makes sense too.

 

[Speedlace]

NOW - Would I be held liable for saving the life of another?

I don't understand.
Do you mean obligated to help them?

Would this be considered a homicide, even though I was protecting the 2 women?

DAVE

It would be called justifiable homicide.

 

[Jimmy Dean]

honk horn, if they don't leave, shoot.

imho, DO NOT, I repeat! DO NOT tell them to cease and decist(sp?) This takes away your element of surprise and gives them the opportunity to grab their own weapons if armed.

 

[leVieux]

Qd22,This was my answer to another sorta similar situation, but details what actually happened to a neighbor of my daughter's in Dallas.

We all have certain duties owed and obligations to others; family, society, coworkers, etc. These include military service, community service, participation in democracy, charitable works, etc.

We are morally obligated to participate in these duties according to our opportunities, skills, and capabilities.

Some of us are better suited than others for participation in this segment of public defense; by way of upbringing, experience, education, and temperament.

While each of us probably carries primarily for defense of self and family, society in general benefits greatly from our individual efforts.

The armed and prepared citizen strikes great fear in the hearts (?) of would-be violent criminals and, therefore, greatly suppresses violent crime, making public areas and our homes safer for everyone.

The home-invader would be "braver" in gun-less D.C. than in one of our more heavily armed states; where they could expect to be met by deadly resistance from the occupants.

Think how much more safe we would be from fire if everyone, or most, would carry a fire extinguisher at all times.

Therefore, those few of us capable of safely carrying have an obligation to do so.

A personal story: When we first got our Texas CHL's, one of my first thoughts was that "I'm not a policeman and I'm not going to let myself get involved in others' problems or defense"; many officers are lost to domestic disturbance calls, where emotions run high. Soon after, however, there was a terrible case of a young mother in my daughter's Dallas neighborhood being kidnapped from her morning jog and murdered. Several passers-by saw the lady struggling with her killer on a public street but presumed that it was a husband-wife spat and offered no help. That crime certainly made me think differently about my duty to my neighbors.

Carrying is time-consuming, expensive, and uncomfortable. The discomfort is unnecessarily magnified by the numerous silly restrictions placed on licensees by our state legislators. During the usual day, I have to disarm and rearm several times because of this and frequently must go unarmed in order to be legal. (The armed violent criminal just ignores these restrictions.) We who carry legally must suffer with this to remain "legal".

The "liberal" anti-gunner benefits as much or more than most from our efforts because they enjoy this "free safety" without participation.

I hope this helps you see the "moral obligation" that many of us recognize.

leVieux
Chocolate City, LA

 

[TDH]

I have to ask. From what tactical standpoint does it make any sense to honk the horn.

You are seated in a bad shooting position. You have now alerted them that you are watching and are a witness to a violent crime. I personally would hit 911 and leave it on speaker. And then alert them to stop after I have sights on one and have positioned myself behind the door of the car as cover. If you have 911 on the phone recording you have evidence in court that you tried to get them to stop prior to shooting.

If there isn't enough time. Take cover behind your door and honk from a shooting position. If you have two people who possibly have guns, please don't honk and then try to take a shot out them out the window or through the windshield.

Always remember. If there is no 911 recording and they kill your two witnesses you are trying to rescue your case is harder to prove.

But I'm not an operator or spec-ops. I'm just a southern yahoo that played Army for 8 years.

 

[tunatuk]

I agree with not honking your horn. Or using verbal commands. You aren't LEO. Just stop the threat.

Do not, I repeat, do NOT, get behind your car door as "cover" because it is concealment at best. Your feet will be showing, and most of your upper body as well, so don't think that it'll hide you that much.

Good idea would be to call 911 and leave it on speaker. All 911 centers I know of record all incoming and outgoing communications.

 

[TDH]

I agree with not honking your horn. Or using verbal commands. You aren't LEO. Just stop the threat.

Do not, I repeat, do NOT, get behind your car door as "cover" because it is concealment at best. Your feet will be showing, and most of your upper body as well, so don't think that it'll hide you that much.

Good idea would be to call 911 and leave it on speaker. All 911 centers I know of record all incoming and outgoing communications.

I know its not good cover. I just suggested that would be better than initiating contact from a seated position in the car.

I guess you could go behind the car and do the same. I've never done any car combat to say the least.

 

[KEMOSABI]

Break out the double barrell taser and light them up like a xmas tree....That w/g/you 30 seconds to decide what to do next...LOL>...

 

[downrange]

Oddly enough I am a lawyer and the post about La. R.S. 14:22 is pretty much on point, you can act in defense of others, BUT, you must be certain of the situation you are getting involved in.

Things aren't always as they seem. Your scenario makes some assumptions and provided you are willing to live with the consequences if you read the situation wrong and even if you are right, you can expect significant criminal, civil, emotional and moral actions as a result.

 

[ChordsBail]

The law is pretty clear on this, IMO.
RS 14:22
"It is justifiable to use force or to kill in the defense of another person when it is reasonbly apparent that the person attacked could have justifiably used such means himself, and when it is reasonably believed that such intervention in necessary to protect the other person."

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. I have only typed the law as printed in the CHP blue book.

If you're going to carry a gun, you must educate yourself on the law. Otherwise you will get yourself in a whole lot of trouble.

Correct any citizen, can stop a felony in progress ANY felony!!! That doesn't necesarrily mean blast em......usually if you use your voice in a loud and demanding manner and point your firearm at them 99% of the time they are going to run away (unless their packing, then my advise is to blast away!!!!). You must know you will go to jail and more than likely be accused of a crime. Their will be legal action that will be taken against you for taking 2 lives its up to "The System" to determine if you were right in your actions, but don't think your just going to drive away, their will be an investigation, a trial, and who knows what else....laws are laws,but the legal systems is still going to get you involved!

 

[pntbllr228]

Aim at one bg, tell them you will kill them if they dont stop, and be ready to do so if they dont. Deal with the rest later.

 

[hot shot]

If/when you decide to start shooting, I wouldnt mention anything. The element of surprise may be what keeps you alive. If you yell, and draw attention to yourself, you may get one shot, but who says the "thuglets" arent packing? Once you announce your presence, that gives thug #2 to draw down on you too!!!

 

[spanky]

I agree with not honking your horn. Or using verbal commands. You aren't LEO. Just stop the threat.

Do not, I repeat, do NOT, get behind your car door as "cover" because it is concealment at best. Your feet will be showing, and most of your upper body as well, so don't think that it'll hide you that much.

Good idea would be to call 911 and leave it on speaker. All 911 centers I know of record all incoming and outgoing communications.

This.

 

[LACamper]

I'll go along with yelling orders but I'm thinking about the idea of hiding behind the car door. You're in your vehicle, you can't yell efectively from inside the car, and most don't have loudspeakers like LEO's do to issue commands. You certainly don't want to walk away from your vehicle and get trapped in the hood on foot with maybe 2 mags in a firefight. Cover is good, but do you give up your escape vehicle?
Your car door is not cover, agreed but think about it from the perps point of view. How many inexperienced people would assume that you can't shoot through doors? They probably haven't read about the 'buick of truth' (do a search if you haven't seen it)! I mean every cop show on TV has cops hiding behid their car doors, right? It must be bullet proof, its metal, right? I wonder how many gang bangers would hesitate to try it?

 

[spanky]

I'd rather be out of the car than in. Where you going to go in the car?

Also, yelling? Really? To get attention to yourself? If you are protecting life or limb of someone who reasonably in fear of death or great bodily harm then you shoot to stop the threat. You have no legal or moral obligation to yell at them. All it's going to do is, if they have weapons, get them pointed in your direction and you lose any advantage you may have had.

 

[shoalsfugro]

I agree no horn or verbal remember what you stated, there are 2 guys you want the extra split second to deal with second bg with the element of surprise now gone.