Supreme Court Ruling on Straw Purchases

The Best online firearms community in Louisiana.

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • oleheat

    Professional Amateur
    Premium Member
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 18, 2009
    13,775
    38
    The law was the law and he chose to buy a gun to sell to someone else. It's not like they passed the law after the fact.

    Does the speed limit create a criminal?



    I don't know....You talking doing 36 in a 35? :dogkeke:



    I see this as not much more than a technicality based on a liberal interpretation of the law. But that's just my opinion.

    The NRA and 26 states seem to agree.


    The groups cheering the loudest over this are not our friends. Perhaps we should ask ourselves why. I doubt it has anything to do with a moral superiority they hold over us.:)

    But they'll take it.
     

    geoney

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jun 1, 2011
    796
    16
    Lake Charles
    The law was the law and he chose to buy a gun to sell to someone else. It's not like they passed the law after the fact.

    Does the speed limit create a criminal?

    What he did meets their current definition of a straw purchase.


    Their current definition of a straw purchase makes about as much sense as a bull with **** trying to stack greased BB's with boxing gloves as he backs out of a screen door on a submarine.


    As we used to say in the good ole days - Dey Retarded!
     

    oleheat

    Professional Amateur
    Premium Member
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    May 18, 2009
    13,775
    38
    What he did meets their current definition of a straw purchase.


    Their current definition of a straw purchase makes about as much sense as a bull with **** trying to stack greased BB's with boxing gloves as he backs out of a screen door on a submarine.


    As we used to say in the good ole days - Dey Retarded!


    That's one helluva mental picture.....:bowrofl:
     

    JadeRaven

    Oh Snap
    Rating - 100%
    60   0   0
    Sep 13, 2006
    4,249
    36
    Metairie
    Yeah it seems like it's now up to the legislature to change the definition of a straw purchase to "purchase for another who is legally disallowed from purchasing" or some other variant. I wouldn't bet on that happening anytime soon.
     

    tim9lives

    Tim9
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 12, 2010
    1,675
    48
    New Orleans
    Short breakdown of the SCOTUS Straw purchase case...at least according to the Guns America Blog.

    The scary part is that the ATF actually went after this guy. Forget about legalities....the prosecution is so fricking out of whack. Its just scary!!

    http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/supreme-court-rules-straw-sales-case/

    The U.S. Supreme Court today ruled that the government can enforce the *Straw Man* sale rule even when the person a gun is being bought for is lawfully allowed to own a firearm. Several different Federal Circuit courts had previously ruled on both sides of this issue, prompting the Supreme Court to hear the case. The Supreme Court, in a five-to-four decision, adopted a narrow interpretation of the law, saying the *actual transferee/buyer* must acknowledge that he intends to resell the gun when he buys it, even if the eventual owner is legally entitled to own a gun.

    The case involves Bruce Abramski, a former police officer who bought a gun for his uncle, taking advantage of a discount price offered to active and former police officers. Although he made it clear to the dealer that he was buying the gun for his uncle, Abramski checked the box on the ATF form indicating that he was the actual buyer. He bought the gun in Virginia and went to visit his uncle in Pennsylvania, where they went to a gun dealer to complete the transfer and where his uncle passed the firearms check. Abramski was convicted of making false statements on BATFE Form 4473

    Abramski appealed on the grounds that the Gun Control Act of 1968 was not intended to restrict transfers between law-abiding individuals and that the question on Form 4473 was illegal. He claimed that the Straw Sale provision only applies when the ultimate buyer of the gun is someone who could not himself legally buy a gun. Based on this ruling, the *Straw Man* sale rule means that no one may ever lawfully buy a gun for another person.
     
    Last edited:

    JadeRaven

    Oh Snap
    Rating - 100%
    60   0   0
    Sep 13, 2006
    4,249
    36
    Metairie
    Wow! So the real buyer actually underwent a NICS check anyway?

    That is just nuts. And really sad.

    I suppose it had to get reported again for it to even spark the interest of the BATFE. If Abramski had just handed it off to his uncle in exchange for cash or a check I wonder if there ever would have even been an investigation.

    Though it's pathetic, I guess it's not surprising to see the ATF prosecute someone entirely on a technicality.... it's a good reminder to all of us to have our ducks in a row.
     

    CLC

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    May 28, 2013
    48
    6
    Wow! So the real buyer actually underwent a NICS check anyway?

    That is just nuts. And really sad.

    I suppose it had to get reported again for it to even spark the interest of the BATFE. If Abramski had just handed it off to his uncle in exchange for cash or a check I wonder if there ever would have even been an investigation.

    Though it's pathetic, I guess it's not surprising to see the ATF prosecute someone entirely on a technicality.... it's a good reminder to all of us to have our ducks in a row.



    That's what I was just thinking(and I'm glad I only take cash lol)
     

    tim9lives

    Tim9
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 12, 2010
    1,675
    48
    New Orleans
    Wow! So the real buyer actually underwent a NICS check anyway?

    That is just nuts. And really sad.

    I suppose it had to get reported again for it to even spark the interest of the BATFE. If Abramski had just handed it off to his uncle in exchange for cash or a check I wonder if there ever would have even been an investigation.

    Though it's pathetic, I guess it's not surprising to see the ATF prosecute someone entirely on a technicality.... it's a good reminder to all of us to have our ducks in a row.


    Yep...that's exactly what I thought. By the ATF prosecuting this case...They have just sent the message to the public. Don't try to do the right thing.
    Doing what you think is right....going to a dealer and getting paperwork to protect yourself is the same as putting a noose around your head.

    It makes me wonder. If I were ever to sell a firearm....or If my son or another relative was going to sell his firearm....would it be safer for them to just hand it off and exchange cash. Maybe that is better and safer than getting a receipt of the transaction. If one gets a bill of sale....the paper trail may put a noose around ones neck.

    The guy who buys a firearm....takes it home...realizes he does not like said firearm...then sells it and does absolutely zero more than exchanging cash for firearm, is safer than the guy who gets a bill of sale IMO.

    The overzealous actions of the ATF will only backfire IMO....making the world more dangerous.
     

    Hitman

    ® ™
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Sep 4, 2008
    16,034
    36
    Lake Charles
    Wow! So the real buyer actually underwent a NICS check anyway?

    That is just nuts. And really sad.

    I suppose it had to get reported again for it to even spark the interest of the BATFE. If Abramski had just handed it off to his uncle in exchange for cash or a check I wonder if there ever would have even been an investigation.

    Though it's pathetic, I guess it's not surprising to see the ATF prosecute someone entirely on a technicality.... it's a good reminder to all of us to have our ducks in a row.

    Actually Straw Purchases not involving actual criminals(Someone buying for someone who cannot own)
    and that are not a part of some sting operation,
    are very hard to track and/or pursue or ever really even know if they happen :dunno:

    That would have been the case here too.

    BUT! He was being investigated for TWO Franklin Community Bank Robberies
    so during a serious and thorough FEDERAL investigation like that, serving a Warrant to Search his House,
    a receipt copy, (in a Franklin Community BANK BAG)written out to his Uncle, for a Glock 19 was found. Upon further investigation and by his own admission,
    it was proven that;
    -the uncle expressed desire to buy a Glock 19,
    -the nephew Abramski said he could get him a discounted one by using his no longer valid LEO ID Card.
    -the nephew talks to 3 different FFL's on how to do this properly
    -apparently the 3 FFL's(in VA), all said that transferring it after the fact through his Uncle's FFL in another State(PA)
    would be the way to do it.
    - the Uncle sends the check for $400 on the 15th of Nov. 09'. IN THE MEMO LINE of the check
    he writes 'GLOCK 19 HANDGUN'.
    - two days later Abramski buys the Glock 19 from a local dealer along with $2k worth of other items.
    - Abramski signs the 4473 paperwork completely, to include more specifically Block 11a that he was the true purchaser/buyer.
    - 3 days after the purchase, the $400 check from his uncle was deposited in Abramski's account.
    - the following day, he drove to his Uncle FFL, and transferred the firearm through that FFL to his uncle.
    At that time, the Uncle, gave Abramski a receipt confirming the transfer, reflecting on the receipt
    that the uncle purchased the gun from Abramski for $400.

    a little more back story to HOW;

    A few days before Abramski bought the Firearm, unbeknownst to him, a bank robbery occurred(Nov. 12th 09')
    and Abramski was labeled a suspect based off of the CCTV footage of the robbery
    being in resemblance to him and the fact that he had been fired from Roanoke PD,(allegedly for theft)
    and was recently separated from his wife. He fit the make and model of a suspect according to the Feds.
    so;............
    9 months AFTER he bought the gun for his Uncle(and the bank robbery),
    he's arrested as a suspect in the Bank Robbery.
    Under the Federal Investigation
    ............executing the search warrant for the Iron Ridge Road property,
    agents found and seized a green Franklin Community Bank zippered bag
    containing the written receipt confirming the transfer of the
    Glock 19 handgun from Abramski to Alvarez on November 21, 2009.............

    All the bank Robbery charges were eventually dropped against him.
    The he was subsequently charged with 'Falsifying the 4473' charge,
    which he fought all the way to the SCOTUS.

    EDIT>

    Also note that this was a (5-4 ruling)
    Writing for the four dissenters, Justice Antonin Scalia accused the court majority
    of making it *a federal crime for one lawful gun owner to buy a gun for another lawful gun owner.*
    Joining his dissent were Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito.

    Just like the Circuit Courts before hand, they didn't all agree.
    Like our Circuit,(The 5th) who said
    such a transaction would have been LAWFUL and already ruled so 17 years ago.

    But since they all had different rulings, the SCOTUS said they'd take the case on
    to make a FINAL ruling. Yet even then they STILL didn't all agree obviously.

    /
     
    Last edited:

    tim9lives

    Tim9
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 12, 2010
    1,675
    48
    New Orleans
    Actually Straw Purchases not involving actual criminals(Someone buying for someone who cannot own)
    and that are not a part of some sting operation,
    are very hard to track and/or pursue or ever really even know if they happen :dunno:

    That would have been the case here too.

    BUT! He was being investigated for TWO Franklin Community Bank Robberies
    so during a serious and thorough FEDERAL investigation like that, serving a Warrant to Search his House,
    a receipt copy, (in a Franklin Community BANK BAG)written out to his Uncle, for a Glock 19 was found. Upon further investigation and by his own admission,
    it was proven that;
    -the uncle expressed desire to buy a Glock 19,
    -the nephew Abramski said he could get him a discounted one by using his no longer valid LEO ID Card.
    -the nephew talks to 3 different FFL's on how to do this properly
    -apparently the 3 FFL's(in VA), all said that transferring it after the fact through his Uncle's FFL in another State(PA)
    would be the way to do it.
    - the Uncle sends the check for $400 on the 15th of Nov. 09'. IN THE MEMO LINE of the check
    he writes 'GLOCK 19 HANDGUN'.
    - two days later Abramski buys the Glock 19 from a local dealer along with $2k worth of other items.
    - Abramski signs the 4473 paperwork completely, to include more specifically Block 11a that he was the true purchaser/buyer.
    - 3 days after the purchase, the $400 check from his uncle was deposited in Abramski's account.
    - the following day, he drove to his Uncle FFL, and transferred the firearm through that FFL to his uncle.
    At that time, the Uncle, gave Abramski a receipt confirming the transfer, reflecting on the receipt
    that the uncle purchased the gun from Abramski for $400.

    a little more back story to HOW;

    A few days before Abramski bought the Firearm, unbeknownst to him, a bank robbery occurred(Nov. 12th 09')
    and Abramski was labeled a suspect based off of the CCTV footage of the robbery
    being in resemblance to him and the fact that he had been fired from Roanoke PD,(allegedly for theft)
    and was recently separated from his wife. He fit the make and model of a suspect according to the Feds.
    so;............
    9 months AFTER he bought the gun for his Uncle(and the bank robbery),
    he's arrested as a suspect in the Bank Robbery.
    Under the Federal Investigation
    ............executing the search warrant for the Iron Ridge Road property,
    agents found and seized a green Franklin Community Bank zippered bag
    containing the written receipt confirming the transfer of the
    Glock 19 handgun from Abramski to Alvarez on November 21, 2009.............

    All the bank Robbery charges were eventually dropped against him.
    The he was subsequently charged with 'Falsifying the 4473' charge,
    which he fought all the way to the SCOTUS.

    EDIT>

    Also note that this was a (5-4 ruling)
    Writing for the four dissenters, Justice Antonin Scalia accused the court majority
    of making it *a federal crime for one lawful gun owner to buy a gun for another lawful gun owner.*
    Joining his dissent were Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito.

    Just like the Circuit Courts before hand, they didn't all agree.
    Like our Circuit,(The 5th) who said
    such a transaction would have been LAWFUL and already ruled so 17 years ago.

    But since they all had different rulings, the SCOTUS said they'd take the case on
    to make a FINAL ruling. Yet even then they STILL didn't all agree obviously.

    /

    Well...then that does change everything. As is usually the case...The Feds and local LE had a pretty good reason to go after this guy. So...now I get it and now I understand why he was charged.
    Abramski was not the innocent gun buyer who was being persecuted by the system. The guy was probably a bad cop who robbed a bank. So yea...now it makes sense.

    At first...I was totally dumbfounded to see that they took this case all the way to the Supreme Court.

    Thanks for the updated info Hitman.

    FWIW...the fact remains that the new ruling will set a precedent for LE to expand upon for said gun transfers. It is just the way our legal system works.
    Whenever the Supreme Court rules...it does set a new precedent.
    That's just another reason for being extra diligent IMO.
     

    323MAR

    Well-Known Member
    Silver Member
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Jan 15, 2014
    2,578
    113
    New Oeleans LA
    So what we have here is the usual case of the Feds accepting the minor charge when the real investigation falls through. Unfortunately, this time it became a landmark ruling that was anti-gun. All because some old fool wanted to save a little money on an already cheap Glock and a former LE could not keep his nose clean.
     

    Bigtex1959

    Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 17, 2014
    15
    1
    Katy, Texas
    So if a guy buys 3 new, identical AR's at a great price from an FFL and decides 2 or 3 months later to sell 2 at a good profit, he's a felon. That was happening everyday just over 18 months ago. AR values were soaring day to day. Is it only his intent at the time of the original purchase that matters?

    PS: I don't own an AR. Never have.
     
    Last edited:

    SpeedRacer

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 100%
    92   0   0
    Feb 23, 2007
    14,347
    38
    Mandeville, LA
    So if a guy buys 3 new, identical AR's at a great price from an FFL and decides 2 or 3 months later to sell 2 at a good profit, he's a felon. That was happening everyday just over 18 months ago. AR values were soaring day to day. Is it only his intent at the time of the original purchase that matters?

    PS: I don't own an AR. Never have.

    That would not be straw buying, but there are is a whole other set of regulations covering reselling for profit. That's a whole 'nother grey area and a whole 'nother can of worms. There were indeed prosecutiona during that time period, but they were extreme cases of people buying and flipping a ton of guns.
     

    Bigtex1959

    Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 17, 2014
    15
    1
    Katy, Texas
    That would not be straw buying, but there are is a whole other set of regulations covering reselling for profit. That's a whole 'nother grey area and a whole 'nother can of worms. There were indeed prosecutiona during that time period, but they were extreme cases of people buying and flipping a ton of guns.

    One or a ton. Does it matter? If It's not my primary business?
     

    SpeedRacer

    Well-Known Member
    Rating - 100%
    92   0   0
    Feb 23, 2007
    14,347
    38
    Mandeville, LA
    One or a ton. Does it matter? If It's not my primary business?

    Depends on how you want to interpret the ATF regs. This was hashed out heavily during the panic days and bottom line is there's just a lot of grey area. It's not unreasonable to impulse buy a couple guns and sell them later.
     
    Top Bottom