Supreme Court weighs gun rights challenge

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  • freedive10

    -Global Mod-, Caballoloco
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    Members may find this interesting!

    The Supreme Court took up a new gun rights case on Wednesday, weighing whether it should be a crime for someone to buy a gun for somebody else, if both people are legally allowed to own one.

    Justices on Wednesday heard from Bruce James Abramski, Jr., a former police officer who got in trouble with the law after he bought a Glock 19 handgun in Virginia -- and transferred it to his uncle in Pennsylvania.

    Abramski bought the gun because he could get a discount, and checked a box on the relevant form saying the gun was for him. But he sold it to his uncle.

    Abramski was later indicted under federal law for making a false statement material to the lawfulness of a firearm sale -- and for making a false statement with respect to information required to be kept in the records of a license firearm dealer.

    But Abramski's lawyers told the high court that since both he and his uncle were legally allowed to own guns, the law shouldn't have applied to him.

    His team argued that Congress never intended for a lawful buyer who transfers a gun to another lawful owner to be prosecuted under this law -- and that the intent was all about making sure straw buyers don't purchase guns for people not allowed to have them, like certain convicted criminals.

    But the government argued that he violated the plain language of the law, when he said on the form that the gun was for him. They argued he never gave the seller any idea that he planned to essentially resell the gun to someone else the dealer would have no opportunity to vet.

    Much of Wednesday's arguments centered on the question on the form -- prepared by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives -- and whether the agency's decision to include the question gives it the force of law, enough to make it a crime to answer untruthfully.

    A decision in the case is expected by June.

    Fox News' Shannon Bream and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
     

    Bosco

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    The law is the law. If you don't like it, try and change it. But don't pretend that you aren't breaking the law when you clearly are.
     

    pangris1

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    So if you buy a gun to give as a gift - ??

    It is for you, because if you did not own it, how could you give it as gift...

    Largely academic in that most of the gun/gift transfers in my life occur within my household.
     

    olivs260

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    Seems like the bigger deal would be that he transferred it to a resident of another state, assuming he didn't go through an FFL. How can the prosecution prove that he bought it with the intent to sell it to his uncle?
     

    rtr_rtr

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    So if you buy a gun to give as a gift - ??

    It is for you, because if you did not own it, how could you give it as gift...

    Largely academic in that most of the gun/gift transfers in my life occur within my household.

    Gifts are specifically exempted to my knowledge. The issue is the other individual putting money forward

    Seems like the bigger deal would be that he transferred it to a resident of another state, assuming he didn't go through an FFL. How can the prosecution prove that he bought it with the intent to sell it to his uncle?

    He went through an FFL
     

    madwabbit

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    See thats the problem though if we want to discuss this. We aren't promoting illegal activity at all. Trading guns at gun shows, or selling ftf is NOT illegal. This poor guy is being hammered because he made every effort to do it the "legal" route. My point is that he genuinely would have been better off (legally and financially) by simply trading his uncle the gun for a sandwich in person.

    It's an unfortunate reality but bureaucratic bullcrap occasionally ties itself in knots, this is just an example of it hanging itself.
     

    Jack

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    No, the guy is being hammered because he knowingly lied on his 4473 over a $150 discount that was probably half eaten up by transfer fees. If you want to talk about the law being unfair or unconstitutional, that's fine. Discussing ways to break it isn't going to fly.
     
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    madwabbit

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    I understand your point and I didn't read the article that way. Now that I do, I see the murkiness in our responses.

    "But the government argued that he violated the plain language of the law, when he said on the form that the gun was for him. They argued he never gave the seller any idea that he planned to essentially resell the gun to someone else the dealer would have no opportunity to vet."

    The day he buys the gun, it IS for him. Obviously, they admit that he purchased with intent to immediately sell because his attorney argued the (fantastic imo) point that the law was written to prevent legal owners from purchasing for those who cannot; not to restrict legal purchasers from transferring to another legal owner. itll be interesting to see how this aspect plays out.

    +1 to to him eating discount for xfer fees anyway. dumb.
     

    JR1572

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    Madwabbit,

    How do you think they got caught? I'm thinking inculpatory statements from the accused. What are your thoughts?

    JR1572
     

    madwabbit

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    I think the statements possibly got him hooked, but what raised the smoke was the uncle taking delivery at his ffl and the dealer asking why he was paying transfer fees when "you can buy blue label anywhere for the same price". At which point, dealer connects dots that uncle is not a leo and it was purchased with intent to transfer.

    In my own opinion, I maintain that the day he purchased the firearm and took possession, it WAS for him. He paid for it, and he left the store with it. He's probably too honest of a guy to tell the dealer "I decided after purchasing that I'd rather have the .40 and offered to sell this gun to my uncle for exactly what I paid."

    His attorney however has opted for the "this law is bogus so he broke it" approach. - which means that the cop is indeed an honest guy that told someone, somewhere that "yeah I bought it for him for the discount. I should be allowed to."


    either way, someone's got an honest heart and a big mouth.
     

    JR1572

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    I think the statements possibly got him hooked, but what raised the smoke was the uncle taking delivery at his ffl and the dealer asking why he was paying transfer fees when "you can buy blue label anywhere for the same price". At which point, dealer connects dots that uncle is not a leo and it was purchased with intent to transfer.

    In my own opinion, I maintain that the day he purchased the firearm and took possession, it WAS for him. He paid for it, and he left the store with it. He's probably too honest of a guy to tell the dealer "I decided after purchasing that I'd rather have the .40 and offered to sell this gun to my uncle for exactly what I paid."

    His attorney however has opted for the "this law is bogus so he broke it" approach. - which means that the cop is indeed an honest guy that told someone, somewhere that "yeah I bought it for him for the discount. I should be allowed to."


    either way, someone's got an honest heart and a big mouth.

    We're on the same page then.

    Thanks,

    JR1572
     

    Vermiform

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    I find this part interesting:

    Much of Wednesday's arguments centered on the question on the form -- prepared by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives -- and whether the agency's decision to include the question gives it the force of law, enough to make it a crime to answer untruthfully.
     

    Just A Number

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    1. You need to read beyond the actual question on the F4473 to the definition of "actual buyer" in the Definitions section of the form. There is where they state that although a person may be the physical buyer that an intent to immediately transfer the firearm makes one not the actual buyer.

    2. My understanding is that the issue before the USSC hinges on that. In authoring that form, the ATF has used their interpretation of a definition to criminalize an act. Their definition does not appear in any Statute. This is akin to the current POTUS Executive Action vs Congress Legislative Actions fight. I think this is an important question for them to rule upon and I really hope they don't decide that unelected non-legislative officials can de facto criminalize actions through Regulation. That would be a bad, bad thing.

    3. Much is being made of the ATF Agents testimony. His statement that the "transfer was legal" is referring to the buyer to uncle transfer that went through a separate FFL. NOT the original purchase which is the subject of this case. That testimony shouldn't be referenced here.

    4. The FBI thinks this guy got away with something (bank robbery) so they are hammering him on this BS charge. It's not right but that doesn't shield him from prosecution. I can guarantee that, asked now, the AUSA would want nothing to do with this case. Pretty surprised they went forward with this given their risk averse decision making process. Some Agent really leaned on them for this...and it's silly selective prosecition.

    However,

    He planned the purchase in advance and accepted money from his uncle in advance of the purchase, with "Glock 19" written in the memo line of the check. He lied on the form. Period. now the question becomes will the Supremes allow "policy/regulation" that turns essentially non-criminal or statuetory activity into a crime.


    Fired from his LEO job in less than a year after being suspected of stealing money, suspect in a bank robbery, and now straw purchase charges using expired police credentials. Going through a "rough patch" doesn't describe this guy. He's got a big black cloud swirling over and around him indicating that he is a crapweasel and not an ideal poster child for2nd ammendment pearl clutching.
     
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