The Great Optics vs Irons Debate.

[doc ace]

I guess I misunderstood the OP's question and the entire poll. I thought the question was what is your minimum. Didn't realize the question was what I thought was the best type of sight. So I'll take fire and forget smart scopes for 500 Alex.

It is what your minimum is.

Alot of people have pointed weapons at other men, the question is what is everyone's bare minimum you feel is acceptable on a defensive rifle.

I personally feel just as confident that at a minimum my iron sight usage would have served as good as the EOTech I had on my Colt M4 also. My Leupold didn't serve me any confidence in it as it had terrible eye relief as a CQB optic. I've always been a both eyes open shooter. An advantage optics have is the ability to pick one up off the dirt that another shooter has been incapacitated and cannot use his carbine any more. The new shooter shouldn't have to zero the optic vs iron sights. I see both sides of the picture, I was merely polling what do you feel is the minimum a defensive rifle should have. Mine is : Irons, Light, and sling.

Goteron I have to say looking directly at my sure fire was like staring into the sun and I definitely had trouble getting the spots for a few minutes afterward, I believe they still temporarily blind you from personal experience. Paired with your rods being flooded with pure white light and taking over your cones for dim/dark lighting, readjusting and reacquiring your normal night/dim lit vision would take minutes. Now if the ir cap is still on, that's a different story

 

[onebigbagostupi]

I would say that irons is the absolute minimum. Obviously the preferred loadout would be everything under the sun that makes the other guy more dead than you, but if the question says minimum, iron sights. To reorganize the question, Is using only iron sights on a defense rifle acceptable?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

People have different opinions on Defensive Guns. I know I don't consider a gun work ready until it has an optic.

 

[returningliberty]

My personal bare minimum for a defense rifle is an rds from a quality maker, sling, and light. I went CHEAP on sling and light in order to afford a decent optic, and I still wish I had spent more and got an awesome one.

 

[doc ace]

People have different opinions on Defensive Guns. I know I don't consider a gun work ready until it has an optic.

Bravo!

 

[WOLFIE]

My minimum for CQC is a quality reflex sight that I can use with both eyes open. I prefer 1.75 MOA or 2.0 MOA in case I have shoot further than CQC ranges. I recently purchased a Trijicon SRS optic and the different size lenses (you look through the smaller diameter lense first) works great.

 

[Blackhawk]

Iron sights are a minimum, but why not have the best combination of both iron and an optic? Cmore is one of my favorites:

http://www.opticsplanet.com/c-more-tactical-red-dot-sight-for-a3-receiver-black.html

 

[WOLFIE]

I agree with you Blackhawk. I do have flip up iron sights on the AR as well.

 

[JNieman]

Saw this elsewhere and thought it was worth dropping in here, since the thread kinda stagnated:
(You can tell it was designed by a grunt because they used site instead of sight)

 

[SpeedRacer]

Saw this elsewhere and thought it was worth dropping in here, since the thread kinda stagnated:
(You can tell it was designed by a grunt because they used site instead of sight)

He's gonna miss his target.

 

[doc ace]

Haha! Good ol iron sights.

 

[Ritten]

Haha! Good ol iron sites.

FIFY

 

[jimsuber]

I shot the FClass / Prone Texas state championship last year at Camp Swift. (if you can call what i did shooting) . It's an active deployment training area. A couple of guys were having this same discussion. As a few of the trainees were moving through the area behind the firing line the pro scope guy asked, "Hey, whats them little tubes on top of those soldiers weapons"
The pro irons guy walked away.
You see, it don't matter how tactical your weapon is or aint if it takes YOU 5 minutes to get out of your chair.
Buy a shotgun.
Rifles are for fun, irons or scopes.

 

[STTAB]

Trying to avoid controversy as a new guy but i can't in good conscious let this one go. New to the forum and reading old posts. I'm passionate about shooting and hope I can pass on some pearls of wisdom, hopefully gaining wisdom along the way. That being said.

Iron sights are the basis for a stellar shooter. Bottom line.

There is a reason why most long term shooting programs begin with iron sights. First off, iron marksmanship is a skill often forgot. Straight hold , 6 o'clock hold, line of white, favor left/right........makes long range shooting simpler/faster than the current crop of MOA/MIL/MILRAD systems. Second; the skill, concentration, focus,and attention to detail required to excel with iron sights prepare the marksman for advanced skill retention.

SOTIC, the special operations sniper course, begins with all students conducting a shoot in. The shoot consists of candidates firing a stock M4 with standard iron sights at a zeroing target placed at 25 meters. Doesn't matter where you group, it just matters on the shot group itself. This was implemented after SOF and the big army went to AP pure. The instructors saw a dramatic drop in basic marksmanship skills after the adoption of the red dot sight.

The first few weeks of the course consists of ARM (advanced rifle marksmanship). NRA heavy, focused on known distance shoots, with iron sights, no bipod, and service ammunition. Post AP adoption service wide; failure rates during ARM skyrocketed. Some may think, "Big Deal", scope technology has gone beyond the need for 600 meter iron sight shots. Talking with the FOGs who stood up the course, most people miss the point.

Requiring guys to pass ARM isn't a throwback for nostalgia. It's a well crafted formula for success. Experience has proven that a candidate who can master iron sights, will usually succeed. Basic rifle marksmanship requires focus on simple fundamentals. Doing this while maintaining sight alignment and sight picture.....at 600 meters...in the prone....on your elbows; takes focus, consistency, and skill. This is the mark of an advanced marksman. Advanced marksmanship is the building block for sniper marksmanship. The sniper marksmanship block is the same course only adding moving targets, pop up targets and optics. Of course this is with 7.62.

The sister course for CQB begins with pistol marksmanship and a day of iron sight rifle.

An old Tm Sgt of mine always chose pistol ranges when it came to brass tacks. He said if you can shoot a pistol well you can shoot anything else great. When pressed for an explanation, he said short radius iron sights make for great marksmen.

When in a similar course using 5.56, 300 meters was the standard in the same configuration. The same standards applied. Imagine 100 meters, prone unsupported, SR1 target, ten out of ten in the X/10 ring, under time; being the expected standard. Next string, pull off the red dot and try it again with BUIS. The average marksman will fail. Next day, 300 meters prone unsupported, 10 out of 10 shots in the bowling pin of a man size target within time. Failure is not an option. Every shot must count.

This is the the type of marksmanship that can only be achieved by mastering iron sights first. Attending these courses I had little trouble. I grew up in the days of carrying handles and 20" barrels. My first CQB run was in that exact configuration plus a mag light taped on the front. To this day I can make a CQB shot just as fast with my front sight post, as my red dot. Don't expect a head shot, but at least I'll make it count.

Within the last few years I attended a shooting course with a name brand instructor. Batteries ran dry after lunch and he recommended I bow out of the comp (loser buys beer). Mid string I ripped off my sight and finished the run with mu BUIS. The remainder of the day I ran with my irons for the last day of advanced drills. Wasn't the fastest, but not the slowest. Someone else bought coors light that day. Red dots have made us lazy. Learning to be a marksman with iron sights is hard. In the end it will make you a better shooter.

To this day my 556 set up for long range patrols (especially in wet environments) is laser/carrying handle/ front sight post. Flashlight and red dot are in the ruck. Experience says electronics will fail long term. Ask any 1st grouper why.

Also, reference slings. Some may think 90 degree elbows and locking in with leather are obsolete. My comrades and myself disagree. Standing off hand shots, at 600 meters, on a man size target would be impossible otherwise. 300 meters on a running man sized target, standing off hand, would be impossible otherwise. We may of upgraded to nylon slings but tried and true techniques that have proven themselves in world wars we won't forget. Ask Scarry Larry to do El Pres with a rifle and observe where his elbow is. It's not tucked in.

S

 

[Born4spd]

Trying to avoid controversy as a new guy but i can't in good conscious let this one go. New to the forum and reading old posts. I'm passionate about shooting and hope I can pass on some pearls of wisdom, hopefully gaining wisdom along the way. That being said.

Iron sights are the basis for a stellar shooter. Bottom line.

There is a reason why most long term shooting programs begin with iron sights. First off, iron marksmanship is a skill often forgot. Straight hold , 6 o'clock hold, line of white, favor left/right........makes long range shooting simpler/faster than the current crop of MOA/MIL/MILRAD systems. Second; the skill, concentration, focus,and attention to detail required to excel with iron sights prepare the marksman for advanced skill retention.

SOTIC, the special operations sniper course, begins with all students conducting a shoot in. The shoot consists of candidates firing a stock M4 with standard iron sights at a zeroing target placed at 25 meters. Doesn't matter where you group, it just matters on the shot group itself. This was implemented after SOF and the big army went to AP pure. The instructors saw a dramatic drop in basic marksmanship skills after the adoption of the red dot sight.

The first few weeks of the course consists of ARM (advanced rifle marksmanship). NRA heavy, focused on known distance shoots, with iron sights, no bipod, and service ammunition. Post AP adoption service wide; failure rates during ARM skyrocketed. Some may think, "Big Deal", scope technology has gone beyond the need for 600 meter iron sight shots. Talking with the FOGs who stood up the course, most people miss the point.

Requiring guys to pass ARM isn't a throwback for nostalgia. It's a well crafted formula for success. Experience has proven that a candidate who can master iron sights, will usually succeed. Basic rifle marksmanship requires focus on simple fundamentals. Doing this while maintaining sight alignment and sight picture.....at 600 meters...in the prone....on your elbows; takes focus, consistency, and skill. This is the mark of an advanced marksman. Advanced marksmanship is the building block for sniper marksmanship. The sniper marksmanship block is the same course only adding moving targets, pop up targets and optics. Of course this is with 7.62.

The sister course for CQB begins with pistol marksmanship and a day of iron sight rifle.

An old Tm Sgt of mine always chose pistol ranges when it came to brass tacks. He said if you can shoot a pistol well you can shoot anything else great. When pressed for an explanation, he said short radius iron sights make for great marksmen.

When in a similar course using 5.56, 300 meters was the standard in the same configuration. The same standards applied. Imagine 100 meters, prone unsupported, SR1 target, ten out of ten in the X/10 ring, under time; being the expected standard. Next string, pull off the red dot and try it again with BUIS. The average marksman will fail. Next day, 300 meters prone unsupported, 10 out of 10 shots in the bowling pin of a man size target within time. Failure is not an option. Every shot must count.

This is the the type of marksmanship that can only be achieved by mastering iron sights first. Attending these courses I had little trouble. I grew up in the days of carrying handles and 20" barrels. My first CQB run was in that exact configuration plus a mag light taped on the front. To this day I can make a CQB shot just as fast with my front sight post, as my red dot. Don't expect a head shot, but at least I'll make it count.

Within the last few years I attended a shooting course with a name brand instructor. Batteries ran dry after lunch and he recommended I bow out of the comp (loser buys beer). Mid string I ripped off my sight and finished the run with mu BUIS. The remainder of the day I ran with my irons for the last day of advanced drills. Wasn't the fastest, but not the slowest. Someone else bought coors light that day. Red dots have made us lazy. Learning to be a marksman with iron sights is hard. In the end it will make you a better shooter.

To this day my 556 set up for long range patrols (especially in wet environments) is laser/carrying handle/ front sight post. Flashlight and red dot are in the ruck. Experience says electronics will fail long term. Ask any 1st grouper why.

Also, reference slings. Some may think 90 degree elbows and locking in with leather are obsolete. My comrades and myself disagree. Standing off hand shots, at 600 meters, on a man size target would be impossible otherwise. 300 meters on a running man sized target, standing off hand, would be impossible otherwise. We may of upgraded to nylon slings but tried and true techniques that have proven themselves in world wars we won't forget. Ask Scarry Larry to do El Pres with a rifle and observe where his elbow is. It's not tucked in.

S

I think you should post more often.
Thanks for your input