THE SAGA CONTINUES, FFL refused transfer, military from Florida

[SamNavy]

My FFL here in New Orleans would not transfer me a gun today.

I will try to provide as much information here as I can.

He was audited a week ago by local ATF, and the agent had found that sometime in the recent past, he had transferred a firearm to an active-duty military, on permanent orders, resident of Florida w/FL drivers licence. The agent said that due to Florida law, the transfer was not legal, and would not transfer me my gun.

I am active duty military, on permanent orders to Louisiana.
I am a Florida resident w/FL drivers license, even a FL CCW.

Can anybody tell me what law/statute the ATF agent is using to tell my FFL he cannot transfer me a gun? My FFL was very unhelpful, essentially refusing to give me any information other than what I've told you. He would not tell me the name of the agent and was unable to cite any of the laws she had told him.

Thanks if you know WTF is going on here.

 

[JBP55]

Ask the BATFE.

 

[Sugarbug]

Sounds like he's skittish about doing it and making something up if he's unwilling to give you any other information.

 

[Pelican Pawn]

Could he tell you what Florida Law? Also is this a long gun or hand gun ?

 

[Phoenix 6.0]

long gun or pistol?

 

[SamNavy]

Tomorrow I'll be tracking down the local ATF agent (it's a "she", can't be too many) and inquiring.

I've transferred several guns from this place this year, and between me and my buddies, probably a dozen in the last 6 months. He indicated the ATF agent said "It's a new law Florida just put into effect".

The whole thing was really weird, and it was very clear that he is afraid of this ATF agent.

 

[kcinnick]

The ATF agent I deal with is cool, he was there to help us out and was very excited when I handed him my articles of incorporation, local business license, state tax ID letter, Federal tax ID letter etc. He said if I didn't provide it he would have to look it up. Tell you the truth, everyone I came into contact with the ATF on the firearms side was great to deal with, the A and T, well that is a different story. They don't even know the laws they are trying to enforce.

 

[lefty]

why would feds care about a state law?

 

[SamNavy]

This was for a S&W MP15 rifle.

I am a Jedi-master of Google-FU!

Ready... set... here we go.

Apparently, sometime in the past, Florida revamped it's firearms laws and added a paragraph that says something to the effect of "Florida residents may purchase handguns ONLY in Florida (to coincide with Federal law)... but Florida residents may also purchase long-guns in states that border Florida, ie, Georgia/Alabama/Mississippi."

This law was intended to clear up confusion with Federal Law that allows states to determine if it's residents can purchase long-guns out of state. Federal Law allows residents of any state to purchase long-guns in any other state as long as it's cool with the state. Some states chose to limit long-gun sales to only states that share a border. Florida apparently did this.

Obviously this doesn't apply to Active Duty Military on Orders, since via Federal Law, we're legal residents of any state we have permanent orders in no matter where our drivers licence is from.

But apparently some ATF agent somewhere tried to send an FFL to prison due to the FLORIDA LAW... and the word got out and for many years, FFL's wouldn't sell long-guns to military with Florida DL's outside of the "border states." They'd have no problem selling handguns, but because of the verbiage and some overzealous ATF agent, no long-guns... which is freaking asinine.

HOWEVER... last June, FLORIDA Senate Bill 234 was signed by the Governor that ended the "border states only" rule (in addition to legalizing OPEN CARRY)... and for whatever reason, I suspect our local ATF Agent doesn't know this.

So, problem solved. I'll let y'all know how receptive the local ATF types are when I call them. Does anybody have any contact info for the New Orleans Field Office? I can look it up, but if somebody here "knows a guy", I suspect this would be easier.

What a pain in the ass.

 

[SamNavy]

Damn I'm good... from the "Bill Analysis"... some court document outlining the purpose of the bill:

Florida Residents Purchasing Shotguns and Rifles in Other States
In 1968, the Federal Gun Control Act (GCA) was enacted.24 Among its many provisions was a section that made it unlawful for a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector25 to sell or deliver any firearm26 to any person who the licensee knew or had reasonable cause to believe did not reside in the state in which the licensee’s place of business was located.27

The GCA specified that this prohibition did not apply to the sale or delivery of a rifle28 or shotgun29 to a resident of a state contiguous to the state in which the licensee’s place of business was located if:

The purchaser’s state of residence permitted such sale or delivery by law; The sale fully complied with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states; and The purchaser and the licensee had, prior to the sale of the rifle or shotgun, complied with federal requirements applicable to intrastate firearm transactions that took place at a location other than at the licensee’s premises.30

Subsequent to the enactment of the GCA, several states, including Florida, enacted statutes that mirrored the GCA’s provisions that allowed a licensee to sell a rifle or a shotgun to a resident of a state contiguous to the state in which the licensee’s place of business was located.31 Florida’s statute, s. 790.28, F.S., entitled *Purchase of rifles and shotguns in contiguous states,* was enacted in 1979, and currently provides the following:

A resident of this state may purchase a rifle or shotgun in any state contiguous to this state if he or she conforms to applicable laws and regulations of the United States, of the state where the purchase is made, and of this state.

In 1986, the Firearm Owners’ Protection Act (FOPA) was enacted.32 FOPA amended the GCA’s *contiguous state* requirement to allow licensees to sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun to a resident of any state (not just contiguous states) if:

The transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer; and The sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such states.33

Subsequent to the enactment of FOPA, many states revised or repealed their statutes that imposed a *contiguous state* requirement on the interstate purchase of rifles and shotguns. Florida has not revised or repealed its statute.

 

[S&W4ME]

Not to play devil's advocate here but couldn't you just get a Louisiana ID or DL and do a 4473?

 

[Sugarbug]

Not to play devil's advocate here but couldn't you just get a Louisiana ID or DL and do a 4473?

If he did, he'd lose his FL residency... there's many advantages in having permanent orders to one state and official residency in another. Resident hunting and fishing in Florida and military "resident" hunting and fishing in LA? Who does that?

 

[SamNavy]

Not to play devil's advocate here but couldn't you just get a Louisiana ID or DL and do a 4473?

This would solve the problem, but I'd have to claim LA residency.

Every pilot in the entire Navy goes through either Florida or Texas for some or all of flight school. About 95% of us claim residency when there and never give it up through our entire careers. As a Florida resident, I pay no state income tax and register my cars with a phone call. Florida and Texas both make it REAL enticing to keep their residency.

I'm pretty sure that even to get a LA ID card, I'd have to claim residency... so that's out.

And for the big picture, I want to solve this problem for the benefit of everybody who comes after me. There's an ATF agent out there who isn't up to speed on current law... I kinda consider it my responsibility as a firearms enthusiast to fix this.

 

[Specularius]

Louisiana used to have that same contiguous state clause but revoked it a few short years ago.

 

[Pelican Pawn]

The dealer does not even need to see your FL dl. All they need is your Military ID and your orders showing your stationed in Louisiana. We do them all the time on transfers, sells and pawns.

 

[asianpersuasion]

My buddy when he was in flight school in MS had the same issue your having. He ended up just having it shipped to FL

 

[SamNavy]

The dealer does not even need to see your FL dl. All they need is your Military ID and your orders showing your stationed in Louisiana. We do them all the time on transfers, sells and pawns.

My buddy when he was in flight school in MS had the same issue your having. He ended up just having it shipped to FL

I've purchased 4 guns from this FFL in the past year with no problem. The difficulty was because of his most recent audit, which was performed by an agent who just wasn't up to speed on the change to Florida law last year. Also, this law NEVER applied to military in the first place. Pelican is right, the ATF is a Federal agency and the Federal Law says I'm a resident of the state I'm permanently assigned to no matter where my DL is from. The DL is just another way for the FFL to match up my picture with my name, but isn't necessary.

This is just another reminder to everybody regarding the immense fight we are constantly up against for RKBA. You have to stay on top of the legislation of within a few months, you're quoting old data or could possibly be doing something newly made illegal. In this case, I'm positive it's going to work out.

I called the ATF Office this morning and was well-received. I'm waiting for a call back which hopefully clears this whole thing up.

 

[SamNavy]

Just got off the phone with probably the nicest and most polite federal employee I've ever spoken too. She was over-the-top helpful, and cleared everything up for me. She indicated that there was clearly a big disconnect between her and my FFL. She says she remembers the conversation regarding Florida residents but that it only applies to handguns, and even that doesn't apply to military. She reiterated what I already knew about permanent orders determining residency that enables military members to buy both hand and long-guns in any state via FEDERAL law.

She is going to call the FFL and leave a message for them to call her back as soon as they open to clear things up. We'll be headed down there this afternoon and hopefully bringing back a brand new AR.

 

[Trey@IG]

you would think that people who are in the business of selling firearms and such that they, of all people, would know the laws concerning the business they make their living off of. or at the very least clear up any misconceptions with the ATF not have their customers do it for them. i wouldnt go back personally

 

[dixiejarhead]

This would solve the problem, but I'd have to claim LA residency.

Every pilot in the entire Navy goes through either Florida or Texas for some or all of flight school. About 95% of us claim residency when there and never give it up through our entire careers. As a Florida resident, I pay no state income tax and register my cars with a phone call. Florida and Texas both make it REAL enticing to keep their residency.

I'm pretty sure that even to get a LA ID card, I'd have to claim residency... so that's out.

And for the big picture, I want to solve this problem for the benefit of everybody who comes after me. There's an ATF agent out there who isn't up to speed on current law... I kinda consider it my responsibility as a firearms enthusiast to fix this.

Residence is FL.
Domicile is LA. All you need is a copy of your PCS orders to LA and a LA ID card. This does not make you a resident. I did it while on active duty in OR while a resident of WA. WA license and OR ID card, living in OR.