What stars and bars mean to you.

[Kraut]

I have one ancestor on my father's side who fought for the Confederacy, and it for damned sure wasn't about slavery for him. No one in my family ever owned a slave or benefited from slavery, working men all down the line, so it was either state pride and state's rights, or a paycheck better than whatever jobs he was working at the time. The Battle Flag has come to be the most recognized symbol of the Confederacy, despite it not being officially designated as the national flag, and as such it has come to represent all aspects of the Confederacy as seen by both sides. To me, it represents pride in my ancestry, because "Great, great, great-grandfather Claus" manned up and took a stand, either out of patriotic pride in his state, or out of determination to make his way and provide for his family, either way being despite the risks. It represents that particular Southern stubbornness that won't let us back down or be pushed around, that sees us keep getting back up to keep trying if knocked down. It brings to mind the collective pride we have in our way of life, having nothing to do with the institution of slavery but everything to do with determination that those ways of life be self-determined and not forced on us by those that don't understand us. It represents the deep truth that ultimately, slavery and economics aside, we Southern states were within our rights to "pick up our toys and go home," so to speak, and that the North were the ones truly doing disservice to the Declaration of Independence.

I believe that it does no good to erase or eradicate things we do not like or find offensive. If a white supremacist harms a black person, jail him, but you can't jail a flag or symbol, no more than you can jail or kill an idea.

 

[usmc-nav]

I have one ancestor on my father's side who fought for the Confederacy, and it for damned sure wasn't about slavery for him. No one in my family ever owned a slave or benefited from slavery, working men all down the line, so it was either state pride and state's rights, or a paycheck better than whatever jobs he was working at the time. The Battle Flag has come to be the most recognized symbol of the Confederacy, despite it not being officially designated as the national flag, and as such it has come to represent all aspects of the Confederacy as seen by both sides. To me, it represents pride in my ancestry, because "Great, great, great-grandfather Claus" manned up and took a stand, either out of patriotic pride in his state, or out of determination to make his way and provide for his family, either way being despite the risks. It represents that particular Southern stubbornness that won't let us back down or be pushed around, that sees us keep getting back up to keep trying if knocked down. It brings to mind the collective pride we have in our way of life, having nothing to do with the institution of slavery but everything to do with determination that those ways of life be self-determined and not forced on us by those that don't understand us. It represents the deep truth that ultimately, slavery and economics aside, we Southern states were within our rights to "pick up our toys and go home," so to speak, and that the North were the ones truly doing disservice to the Declaration of Independence.

I believe that it does no good to erase or eradicate things we do not like or find offensive. If a white supremacist harms a black person, jail him, but you can't jail a flag or symbol, no more than you can jail or kill an idea.

Well said.

 

[dwr461]

To say the primary issue that caused the civil war is not slavery is disingenuous. To the majority of the individuals fighting for the south it was not about slavery as the majority of them did not rely upon slaves in their home life. A modern metaphor would be just like the majority of Americans are in favor stopping illegal immigrants from south of the border today but the politicians who benefit from this mass illegal migration refuse to actually do anything about it.

When one studies the early history of the founding of the colonies, the early government of the untied states, the steps that the founding fathers had to go through to get all the colonies to voters to ratify the new constitution, the Supreme Court cases about slavery prior to the civil war, you'd have to ignore all that to say that slavery was not the primary issue that caused the civil war. It was the primary issue to the rich politicians and their counterparts. It wasn't sold in the newspapers to the people that way. The average southern solder wouldn't have fought for a rich guys slaves. So it wasn't sold to them that way.

As far as the southern battle flag, I fully support anyone's right to wave whatever flag they chose. Originally the flag itself meant very little to me., except that I thouht of the Dukes of Hazzard TV show when I saw it. But someone telling you what it means to you and then telling you that it's wrong? I say ,"Go to he77"

I will loudly and proudly defend your right to wave that flag. It's become a symbol of free speech to to me now.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PPBart]

To say the primary issue that caused the civil war is not slavery is disingenuous... As far as the southern battle flag, I fully support anyone's right to wave whatever flag they chose...

+1... I recently passed my 66th birthday. I've been a history buff for the last 25 yrs, primarily interested in the American Revolution and Civil War. I've read hundreds of books about the wars, have hundreds of books on the subject in my personal library, have visited every major battlefield at least once, etc. Also into genealogy, I learned long ago the some of my ancestors fought for the Union (my dad's side of the family), some fought for the Confederacy (my mother's family has lived in what is now Livingston parish at least since the late 1700's) -- so even though I grew up in the deep south I've always had an impartial view of the conflict, perhaps more willing to logically consider the information I gathered. It became obvious to me long ago that the preservation and expansion of slavery was the primary motivation of Confederate leaders; however, I also learned long ago that this was an "article of faith" for many Southerners and debate was a waste of time, so I don't try to change anyone's mind. I don't think the Confederate flag (any version) should be flown over any government property in any position of honor, but any individual who wishes to fly it should be free to do so!

 

[Emperor]

I don't think the Confederate flag (any version) should be flown over any government property in any position of honor, but any individual who wishes to fly it should be free to do so!

Correct! The war is over! States are either in the US or they are not. If it is about remembrance of the struggle, the pride to fight and die for your beliefs, etc. fine! Pay homage in other ways; privately funded monuments on privately owned land, museums of history perhaps.

But that is not what discarding this is really about. This is yet another veiled attempt to appease feelings and to re-write history. Those of you that live long enough in the distant future will see these same types, go after Revolutionary War remembrances, and WWI & II. I am almost willing to guarantee it.

This new order of douche America mandates that everyone think, look, feel, act, assemble, tolerate, etc. the same. And you do that by natural attrition, indoctrination, and purging.

 

[ajridgedell]

If it is about remembrance of the struggle, the pride to fight and die for your beliefs, etc. fine! Pay homage in other ways; privately funded monuments on privately owned land, museums of history perhaps.

It is important to me that federal and state funded parks, monuments, museums, and other things remain. Why should we have museums and monuments on government land that honor other wars but not honor the civil war? I have no problem with any of the confederate flags being incorporated into state flags. I think it is an excellent way to honor and remember where history had taken us.

 

[Emperor]

It is important to me that federal and state funded parks, monuments, museums, and other things remain. Why should we have museums and monuments on government land that honor other wars but not honor the civil war? I have no problem with any of the confederate flags being incorporated into state flags. I think it is an excellent way to honor and remember where history had taken us.

This^ is reasonable. Remember, the flag in South Caroline was flying on grounds of the statehouse! That is everyone's statehouse! Everyone that pays taxes, that is!