What Zero Distance for Your AR & Why?

[nickatnite]

Actually, I'd say the .223 is an ideal home defense round with proper ammo selection. Done right it overpenetrates less than handguns and has far better terminal performance. There are other considerations but given the option between an AR, handgun of any caliber, or shotgun with any load - in my house - AR every time.

So what would be the consensus on running an 870 with slugs for home defense?

 

[SKYWLKR]

Umm... do you not like your neighbors or live in a fortress?

 

[SpeedRacer]

Since the line of sight/bore line issue has been brought up several times, I'd like to know WHY? Why are the sights so far off the bore line? Is it a byproduct of stock design/cheek weld? With all the billions of doodads available for ARs...why no lowered sight setups?

Seems like a setup using a red dot @ standard height or lower with the backup/iron sights even lower with a 1/3 cowitness would be ****.

 

[SpeedRacer]

You would have to lower the stock so you could get your eye where it needs to be, and to do that you would have to lower the buffer tube - and you can't lower the buffer tube.

So all we have to do is get over this little "buffer tube" hurdle and we're good? Shouldn't be an issue, I mean I can take that bitch off in like 2 minutes.

Back on a serious note...you brought up 1/3 cowitness and having to account for two different sight planes when zeroing. What are your ideas on this? I'm going this weekend to zero in my new T1 w/ 1/3 cowitness setup this weekend, and I know alot of other guys are running/using/wielding/employing/utilizing/etc this setup as well who may appreciate the discussion.

 

[nickatnite]

You would have to lower the stock so you could get your eye where it needs to be, and to do that you would have to lower the buffer tube - and you can't lower the buffer tube.

In order to use a cheek weld on the stock, you have to have sights about 2" high, or higher.

It really isn't a big deal - from 25 yards and in, aim for about an inch above the nose. Do that a few hundred times in a training class or three and it will be second nature. Beyond that, shooting for center mass, there is no need to get picky. With proper ammo selection, shot placement isn't uber critical with a .223 - anywhere within an 8" circle centered on the xiphoid process should produce stellar results.

Hence the comment I made about mine being zeroed for M.O.M. I picked up some Cor-Bon in 7.62x39 just for home defense.. Aim at center mass.

 

[Paul Gomez]

On the height of sights above the bore issue...it is a by-product of having the bore in line with the stock. You have decreased recoil, which lends itself to better control, but at the expense of having the sights higher.

I had a conversation about this with John Farnam awhile back and he said that another consideration with having the sights higher than the barrel was to allow the shooter to have a longer window to shoot a gun as it got hotter because the heat shimmer didn't obscure the sights as was sometimes the case on a more conventionally sighted military gun [M1. M14, etc].

 

[Narco]

While I agree with the most of the arguements and opinions posted here. What I fail to think some realize, is that; How long do you think you have to think about placing a shot at a gun wielding person 25-50 yards away? (let alone 0-20 yards) + Take into consideration your forground and background.. Putting multiple combat effect hits on target, center mass (shoulder to shoulder, base of neck to solar plexus) is the concern..

A 1 to 1.5 MOA @ 200 is suffice for a fighting carbine zero.. with POA/POI at 50, with a -2.5 from there in..Thus shooting someone at center mass will still be a vital organ shot considering we're talking about carbines.

 

[joshuades]

Year ago some company (paging Gomez - he probably knows the inventors DOB and favorite food) came up with an AR that had a folding stock but it never caught on, like I don't know if they even actually delivered them.

I personally don't think there is any real benefit to running two different zeros. Pick a zero - 50, 75, 100, whatever - and train with it from contact to whatever distance you can't imagine shooting past. If you are running a 1/3 - practice using both on the same target at various differences to see how the set up you are using, height wise, actually prints - dot vs irons.

The new copper hotness makes the AR a VERY good performing rifle from 0-200 yards. I'd focus the majority of my training on 0-50, personally.

The AR was designed (with a 20" bbl) to be a 0-300 yard (disposable) gun.

We have made it into... something else, for better or worse.

I am not smart enough to keep up with two zeros and under pressure I wouldn't want to have to do any more math than absolutely necessary.

Damn if I can't remember their name either. What I do remember is they changed the action around a bit to do away with the buffer tube; chopped the carrier in half and fitted an action spring behind it. What was really neat about their system was the gas system. It still used the DI system to cycle the action, but the gas key went into the gas tube as far as the legnth of the stroke. The gas blew through the bolt carrier like a normal DI but the key staying in the tube meant little spillout of gas in to the reciever.

I think it was ZM something...

 

[Paul Gomez]

I think it was ZM something...

ZM Weapons. Dude was a total prick. I had some dealings with him nine or ten years ago.

 

[joshuades]

ZM Weapons. Dude was a total prick. I had some dealings with him nine or ten years ago.

Sorry to hear that. The mechanics seemed sound. Wish I could have had a hands on.

 

[themcfarland]

50/200 RIBZ outlined here http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=328143

^^^^^^^^^^THIS

 

[vgodenwa]

I'll chime in on this before I go to bed.
You are all on crack.
Listen to the deer hunter. We actually shoot stuff and have to make a good shot (kill zone is about an 8" circle), not just a hit which is OK with the military (wounded troops are a problem).
I don't think counting on the vertical nature of the human torso is a good idea (6-12" midrange height) due to the fact that people get behind cover and only show small targets when lead flies.
Also, don't ever count on a theoretical short range zero like 25 yards. May work, may not. Test your zero as far as possible.
The often quoted rule for hunters was 3" high at 100 (hunting magazines), but most knew 100 short range zero and 200 long range zero was better.
I have gone to about 2" high at 100 for all cartridges with sights/scopes that don't have funny reticles/adjustments for different ranges. The reason for this is 100 zero wastes range potential and 200 can have a midrange problem with slower rounds. This has worked the best for both surprise short range situations, and for long range pipeline shots. Whenever I try to zero higher, I usually end up hitting animals in the spine or missing high. This comes from the high zero AND the downward angle from the tree stand/up/down hill. This would replicate shooting from the roof of a building or at a rooftop target. The 2" high zero requires most 2500+ fps rounds to hold high shoulder or backline at 300 and over the back at 400, sometimes using the top of the bottom thick reticle as an aiming point (doesn't always match). You need practice under stress to remember to hold over, but it works OK out to modest ranges. It is MUCH easier to learn to hold over, than to learn to hold over and under for small targets with a big midrange trajectory when you see Mr. Boone and Crocket buck walk by at an unknown range. I would assume the same would be true when someone is shooting back.
If I know I'm going to have long shots, the best method is to have a drop reticle and zero for 100 yards, or 2" high if you really want to stretch it (the tick marks won't match the manufacturers chart). I do the latter with a 45/70 and can hit reliably out to 350 yards with Hornady leverevolution ammo. Ditto with a .300 Win Mag out to 500, but the group is getting bigger, and the wind is a big problem. That is my furthest shot from my deer stands, but so far I have never killed a deer past 400. I have a 750 yard plate, but I won't shoot at a game animal at that distance.

Leave knob twiddling to the DCM guys, IMHO.

Guys with red dots should probably zero at 100 because they aren't that precise to test the zero at long range, and without magnification you probably won't be able to make the long range shots like you do on the range. Magnification allows you to see small targets, and to see THROUGH clutter or into shadows that you can't do with your own vision. Guys with 20/10 vision, never mind. Just because you can shoot a 6" group at 200 with an aimpoint, you probably won't be doing head shots at 200 in the field. Many writers poke fun at guys with 4-12 scopes on their deer rifles for 200 yard shots. They shouldn't. It helps you see so you can hit.

I believed I could shoot pretty good based on my 100 yard groups before I moved to Gloster. My paper groups were pretty good at longer range, and I started shooting at deer at longer range. I forgot to hold over, missed deer, hit deer all over the body (mostly high), and learned a lot about zeroes - especially from field positions vs benchrest zeroes. They aren't the same.

If you have the chance, do as much hunting as you can. It doesn't suit everyone's personality, but the learning experience is eye-opening. Hope this helps.

Von

 

[dzelenka]

Von is correct for setting up a hunting rifle. It is quite close to how I do it. I didn't always shoot paper. One thing that isn't emphasized enough is how to use a plex crosshair for both range estimation and holdover. The Leupold Vari-X III makes this quite easy as they have range markings on the power ring. If you set the power of a 3.5 x 10X on 5X and a deer is larger than the distance between the two heavy parts of the plex, the deer is 300 yards or less. It is quick and dirty, but sometimes that is what it takes.

Dan

 

[vgodenwa]

Agreed hunting is valuable. I need to do more of it.

You have to remember that 99%+ of confrontations we will face against other bipeds will occur within 50 yards. Only in the most outlandish hurricane scenarios could you begin to justify shooting at 100 yards and actually convince a reasonable man that your life was in danger. 0-25 yards is actually what I'm expecting to face, but the zero issue is what it is with the preferred "platform" I'm "running" - apologies to LSP

Pangris, I guess I was speaking more of a TEOTWAWKI than peace time self defense. Most of us are in very little danger of getting in a rifle fight in peacetime. In that scenario, I wouldn't be worried about court, and I want to have a stand-off distance where I can engage and I'm NOT in danger if the poo hits the fan, (not got to be in danger to articulate in court).
However, for peacetime, the problem remains hitting a very small target peeking out from cover after the initial shots. This is the compromise I've had to work out for surprise shots at close to mid range, while still hitting on my power and pipelines.
Thought it might be interesting.
As far as hunting, most big game hunting is boring if you aren't on a ranch, and most people in the rat race cannot bear to sit that long. If you've got the bucks and the time, go on a prairie dog hunt with your self-defense stuff. It's a little extreme on the accuracy, but with a spotter, you can really learn a lot.
Von

 

[SMILEY]

LOOKS like some good inf here. LIVE AND LEARN

 

[dos gris]

I just do whatever LSP972 tells me to do with respect to rifles. He's BTDT and worth listening to, even when he is grumpy and cantankerous. In other words, I listen to his profuse sagacity continuously.

 

[automan71]

Damn if I can't remember their name either. What I do remember is they changed the action around a bit to do away with the buffer tube; chopped the carrier in half and fitted an action spring behind it. What was really neat about their system was the gas system. It still used the DI system to cycle the action, but the gas key went into the gas tube as far as the legnth of the stroke. The gas blew through the bolt carrier like a normal DI but the key staying in the tube meant little spillout of gas in to the reciever.

I think it was ZM something...

I think this is the Para AR.....PARA TTR, I think...no buffer tube, folding stock, shorter bolt, gas vents through the bolt, recoil spring on the operating rod..I think they call it "delayed gas inpingement system".

 

[Richard in LA]

I think this is the Para AR.....PARA TTR, I think...no buffer tube, folding stock, shorter bolt, gas vents through the bolt, recoil spring on the operating rod..I think they call it "delayed gas inpingement system".

The Para TTR is the ZM design (TTR = ZM300). Don't know if Para bought them out or not, though.