You are a devil, aren't you?
Devil? what do you mean lol?
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Why do allot of folks feel the need to list all their guns in their signature?
- Thread starter geeck
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Devil? what do you mean lol?
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Now this I can see happening, so long as the split you picture is unit by unit (opposed to men from the same command taking opposite sides), not counting air bases or naval units, and the Confor (good term for us to use) and "folks in the Hills" don't adopt the now-popular strategy of digging in alongside civilians.
I think this is exactly what would happen if one side ended up with a distinct advantage in a military split, although I can't imagine such a rift would be so cut-and-dry in the making.
I believe the initial action would be entirely too quick to involve the navy, since most of it is at sea at any given time (thank the Japs for that one), and the air force would be pretty even along side the army in the way that they split. the reason I say whole commands will split off is each unit in the army is loyal to the nation, but they are even more loyal to each other. If the commander gives an order, it WILL be carried out, especially in that kind of emergency. If it is not immediately followed, there will be lots of summary courts martial (executions) until it IS followed.
Thats the way of the military in civil war.
Thats the way of the military in civil war.
Sin-ster
GM of 4 Letter Outbursts
Fair enough, and I trust your judgement in this regard as I have only book and word-of-mouth military knowledge, while you have direct experience to go with the other two.
Obviously, some sort of split would occur. If units would follow their commanders, at what point along the chain would the loyalty begin? Obviously not with the Commander in Chief, but how far below him?
Well, the Joint Cheifs are not actually inside the chain of command, so they would effectively be advising the CinC on nothing. the General of USNOTHCOM would begin issueing orders that the Pres gave him, then the army group commanders (generals themselves) would begin to pass orders along, or refuse them. the general officers would be all in an uproar. The real split, I would imagine, would come in the brigade and division areas. You might have the 101st loyal to the pres, becomming the first Central unit. maybe the 82nd down in Georgia would tell the CinC to go to hell, and become the first Confor division. The Old Gaurd would be loyal to washington no matter what, etc. etc. Geography would play a major role as to which side each divisional and group commander chose. For example, The 36th ID would no way in hell call themselves up and go Central, if Ft. Hood, practically right next door and with most of the tanks west of Ft. Knox, went Confor. They'd be crushed within weeks. The entire situation would be a huge mess, maybe each base and camp commander would take charge of all the units there and chose one side or the other. It's also quite possible that some bases would gut themselves. I'll use Knox as an example, since I was stationed there. There are both marines (tankers) and Army (tankers and Scouts), and Army Aviation there, along with a few other diciplines. Maybe the Army tankers and Aviation would go central, and the Cav Scouts (Scouts Out!) and Jarheads when Confor. They would wreck the whole base and each other, if they could secure the armor and weapons they needed.
Summit_Ace
*Banned*
- Jul 6, 2009
- 610
- 16
I think you would be surprised how any people would just give them up. They love their guns but for goodness sake they aren't worth dying for. Many people truly believe it is the governments job to protect us and we do not truly need our firearms. Look at the UK, they gave theirs up and the US is becoming more European every year. There are people on this forum that would have some of us disarmed in some ways and "we" are the pro gunners.
To quote Ben Franklin: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Or perhaps even Patrick Henry: "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
I think that history is against you. The ballot box offers you little protection from tyranny. Remember Hitler was elected. Many groups, especially the Jews, who thought that they had the protection of law were sadly mistaken. Your money and education may provide you some solace; however, getting out of the country could be problematic and finding a country to take you may be equally so. Once again history confirms the potential difficulties you could face. The bottom line is that you have chosen to cede all control to the government. If that works for you, great.
I too have a wife, a daughter and a happy life. I also have money and an education. I also collect guns for fun, but there is more to it. I feel a sense of not only history, but of responsibility to the future to do what I can to protect our Constitutional rights, especially the right to keep and bear arms and private property rights. (5th Amendment - No person shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.) (as a lawyer I do a fair amount of inverse condemnation litigation). The first line of defense is clearly the ballot box. Vote out those who create policies to which you object and vote for those with whom you agree. But the Constitution was not designed to secure rights for the majority. Those will be secured by the ballot box. The Constitution was put in place to secure the rights of the minority from the actions of the majority. If you are in the minority, the ballot box offers no protection. There is a reason that the 2nd Amendment is included in the Bill of Rights immediately after the 1st. To the founding fathers it was extremely important. They were pretty smart guys. It would behoove us to heed their forethought.
If you want an interesting read, take a look at what happened to the signers of the Declaration of Independence. They sacrificed mightily for their beliefs. They were patriots in the truest sense. I would hope that there are more Americans who are cut from their cloth than from those who would be meek.
On a final note, paltry small arms may not be enough to prevent the government from taking them away peoples' guns; but they are sufficient to make this country ungovernable. I cannot speak for future generations who may be beaten down by incessant government propaganda; but the country today would not tolerate a government willing to do what would be necessary to confiscate firearms. Those in power could only hold it by force of arms. America would be destroyed both figuratively and literally.
Fortunately this is all a moot point. Pro 2nd Amendment forces are on the march in most states, the courts and even in the most Democratic and liberal Congress we have had in recent memory. Politicians' only job is to get re-elected and amass power and influence. Even the most liberal of the Democrats recognize that they will lose a large number of seats if they try a repeat of the anti-gun legislation of the early 1990s. Their self interest is currently our protection. We just need to keep reminding them that we are out here.
Dan
Legg86,
Even if 100% of the military were to go with the government (which most agree will not be the case), it is a blunt instrument in general. By this I mean that the most common solution a problem is the application of copious quantities of HE. The destruction of the American infrastructure would be fairly complete. There are huge numbers of non-hardened targets around the nation. If this infrastructure is significantly damaged, the financial markets will grind to a halt (given the global nature of investment, the crisis will likely be worldwide). The United States would come to a screeching halt. It would be a screwed up situation well beyond anyone's comprehension.
As for going quietly like the British and Australians, I don't think so. There is something in the American psyche that rebels against authority. Without generations of propaganda, I don't see this changing.
Dan
Even if 100% of the military were to go with the government (which most agree will not be the case), it is a blunt instrument in general. By this I mean that the most common solution a problem is the application of copious quantities of HE. The destruction of the American infrastructure would be fairly complete. There are huge numbers of non-hardened targets around the nation. If this infrastructure is significantly damaged, the financial markets will grind to a halt (given the global nature of investment, the crisis will likely be worldwide). The United States would come to a screeching halt. It would be a screwed up situation well beyond anyone's comprehension.
As for going quietly like the British and Australians, I don't think so. There is something in the American psyche that rebels against authority. Without generations of propaganda, I don't see this changing.
Dan
totally agree, but never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers, especially if they are politicians. Me and my tinfoil hat are gonna be just fine if anything like I described above happens, and thats only the very beginning hours of the "war". like you said, things would be well and truly FUBAR'ed, but they just might do it regardless.
I changed my avatar back....
"I would like to have the possibility of defending my family against a group of machete wielding intruders with something other than a machete"
FAIRFAX, Va. (AP) - Machetes are becoming the weapon of choice for northern Virginia gangs.
In the past two years in Fairfax, the long, curving knives have been listed in 40 police reports, ranging from random suspicious persons to gang-related incidents. The weapons have been in use for years, but gang members are wielding them more frequently.
In May, Mara Salvatrucha gang members attacked a 16-year-old boy who belonged to a rival gang, the South Side Locos. He lost four fingers trying to shield his head from blows from a machete.
The attack inflamed an already tense gang rivalry, inciting members of South Side Locos members to match MS-13 with equal menace and buy their own machetes.
"People respected MS after that attack. More gangs are going to start using machetes as a weapon," said a 20-year-old former South Side Locos member, who did not want to be identified because he feared for his safety.
Another machete attack came just two weeks ago. A Fairfax man, 24, was leaving a movie theater with a friend when several suspected MS-13 members - one of them carrying a machete - attacked him and cut off three of his fingers.
Khalique S. Zahir, a surgeon at Inova Fairfax Hospital who operated on the South Side Locos boy's hands last year, said he has seen machete wounds on scalps, fingers and legs.
"Machetes are much more destructive than knife wounds because they traumatize the tissue," Zahir said. "They're very challenging, because you often have to make decisions at the last minute about what you can salvage and what you can't."
Sgt. Richard Perez, a Fairfax police spokesman, remembers taking a dinner break at a fast-food restaurant near Baileys Crossroads several years ago when a shirtless man staggered inside. He appeared under the influence of narcotics and seemingly harmless, until Perez noticed a shiny steel tip protruding from the back of the man's arm: He was hiding a machete.
"As soon as I saw that, I backed out of my seat and created distance," Perez recalled. "When he brandished the knife, I didn't go for my pepper spray, I went for the firearm."
Sensing the growing popularity of machetes, Virginia legislators passed a law last year that included them in a list of weapons - including guns and switchblades - that cannot be concealed.
Northern Virginia gangs, mostly made up of Latinos with roots in Central America, have a cultural connection to the machete. In their homelands, the tool is an inexpensive and effective farming implement for harvesting sugar cane.
In the United States, machetes can be purchased in such stores as Home Depot and Lowe's, often for about $10.
Mark Richards, 43, owns Full Metal Jacket, an Alexandria military supply store that sells about 100 machetes a year to people older than 18. He uses one to cut overhanging tree branches on his driveway and to clear jungle paths on hunting trips in Africa.
"It's just another tool that lives in the toolshed that has its use from time to time," he said.
About two months ago, three teenagers walked confidently into a Fairfax military surplus store, said store manager Ian McShane. Even though one teenager was 19, McShane did not feel comfortable making the sale.
"They didn't seem like the kind of people who were going to use it for cutting brush or landscaping," he said. "If we sold it, it could have fallen into the wrong hands."
(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
_________________________________________________________________________________
Taurus Millenium Pro
Ruger Mini-14
Lorcin .380
Raven .25
Crosman .177
"I would like to have the possibility of defending my family against a group of machete wielding intruders with something other than a machete"
FAIRFAX, Va. (AP) - Machetes are becoming the weapon of choice for northern Virginia gangs.
In the past two years in Fairfax, the long, curving knives have been listed in 40 police reports, ranging from random suspicious persons to gang-related incidents. The weapons have been in use for years, but gang members are wielding them more frequently.
In May, Mara Salvatrucha gang members attacked a 16-year-old boy who belonged to a rival gang, the South Side Locos. He lost four fingers trying to shield his head from blows from a machete.
The attack inflamed an already tense gang rivalry, inciting members of South Side Locos members to match MS-13 with equal menace and buy their own machetes.
"People respected MS after that attack. More gangs are going to start using machetes as a weapon," said a 20-year-old former South Side Locos member, who did not want to be identified because he feared for his safety.
Another machete attack came just two weeks ago. A Fairfax man, 24, was leaving a movie theater with a friend when several suspected MS-13 members - one of them carrying a machete - attacked him and cut off three of his fingers.
Khalique S. Zahir, a surgeon at Inova Fairfax Hospital who operated on the South Side Locos boy's hands last year, said he has seen machete wounds on scalps, fingers and legs.
"Machetes are much more destructive than knife wounds because they traumatize the tissue," Zahir said. "They're very challenging, because you often have to make decisions at the last minute about what you can salvage and what you can't."
Sgt. Richard Perez, a Fairfax police spokesman, remembers taking a dinner break at a fast-food restaurant near Baileys Crossroads several years ago when a shirtless man staggered inside. He appeared under the influence of narcotics and seemingly harmless, until Perez noticed a shiny steel tip protruding from the back of the man's arm: He was hiding a machete.
"As soon as I saw that, I backed out of my seat and created distance," Perez recalled. "When he brandished the knife, I didn't go for my pepper spray, I went for the firearm."
Sensing the growing popularity of machetes, Virginia legislators passed a law last year that included them in a list of weapons - including guns and switchblades - that cannot be concealed.
Northern Virginia gangs, mostly made up of Latinos with roots in Central America, have a cultural connection to the machete. In their homelands, the tool is an inexpensive and effective farming implement for harvesting sugar cane.
In the United States, machetes can be purchased in such stores as Home Depot and Lowe's, often for about $10.
Mark Richards, 43, owns Full Metal Jacket, an Alexandria military supply store that sells about 100 machetes a year to people older than 18. He uses one to cut overhanging tree branches on his driveway and to clear jungle paths on hunting trips in Africa.
"It's just another tool that lives in the toolshed that has its use from time to time," he said.
About two months ago, three teenagers walked confidently into a Fairfax military surplus store, said store manager Ian McShane. Even though one teenager was 19, McShane did not feel comfortable making the sale.
"They didn't seem like the kind of people who were going to use it for cutting brush or landscaping," he said. "If we sold it, it could have fallen into the wrong hands."
(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
_________________________________________________________________________________
Taurus Millenium Pro
Ruger Mini-14
Lorcin .380
Raven .25
Crosman .177
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flamatrix99
Well-Known Member
I am adimitting I do know that stats but out of the whole population what percent are gun owners? If the the gov't tried as many of you propose (which I never think will happen) do you feel that there would be much if any sympathy from the non gun owners? I suspect that most people learn about the constitution in school and never give it another thought unless they go into law enforcement or law school. They would do what they were told to.
I never heard of a gun ban in 1994 either but I spent a large portion of 1994 under the Atlantic cean on a submarine.
Until I came here I never knew you were allowed to CC. To this day I have only seen one or two people ever OC. And I have to admit they kinda freaked me out at first.
I met some guys at work that are into guns and taught me about building an AR. Matter of fact Charliepapa bought a TV from me before he was on here and saw my lower and was asking what I was planning on doing with it.
flamatrix99
Well-Known Member
I believe this is very true. When I was in the military too you did what you were told to do.
I cannot say for certain that this will happen in our lifetimes. Nobody can.
But if it does, rest assured that you would be forfeiting more than just your guns....
If you remove a lion's claws & teeth, he & his pride are at the mercy of the hyenas......Just sayin'....
That's the words I was looking for. Thanks charliepapa!
(In case you forgot, this applies to the OP question)
SirIsaacNewton
Well-Known Member
The technology gap between our military and us, with the small arms we are allowed to own, would produce a predictable outcome and it wouldn't be the outcome your eluding to. If the government wanted our weapons they would take them.
The key is having the law enforcement and military on our side. That is what was so scary about the gun grab after Katrina. They decided it was in your best interest to ignore the 2nd amendment and they enacted that stance. Image if they would have had the backing of the entire military along with the technology to implement the plan on a large scale.
I hope your right but the only instance I can recall in which something like this has occurred that resembled a government disregarding an individuals 2nd amendment rights was during Katrina. I didn't hear of any rebellion in the LEO ranks when they where ordered to disarm the populace.
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CloudStrife
Why so serious?
Well, and no offense to the actual soldiers, but look how long we were in Iraq. We can always count on politicians to play both sides.
Boy! Talk about a thread going off topic.
Now I hav a few guns, more then most, but if big brother started going door to door picking up all our guns, I will not fight them in my front yard. I would allow them to take all my guns and leave me in peace.
Once they are gone I will go out and arm my self and I will fight at the time and place I wish. Now I may die, but what the hell, who wants to live forever.
In 1984 there was a survey dune in the Marine Corps. Marines were asked if they were ordered to disarm all Americans, would they follow orders. 84 % said no. They did the survey again around 1999 and 85% said no.
Back on topic. If I listed my guns in my sig. there would be no room for me to post.
Now I hav a few guns, more then most, but if big brother started going door to door picking up all our guns, I will not fight them in my front yard. I would allow them to take all my guns and leave me in peace.
Once they are gone I will go out and arm my self and I will fight at the time and place I wish. Now I may die, but what the hell, who wants to live forever.
In 1984 there was a survey dune in the Marine Corps. Marines were asked if they were ordered to disarm all Americans, would they follow orders. 84 % said no. They did the survey again around 1999 and 85% said no.
Back on topic. If I listed my guns in my sig. there would be no room for me to post.
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The frustrating part for those of us that do stand up for our rights, that do raise hell with our elected officials, and do take the time to vote in every election (local, state, and national) and ensure to exercise those rights by supporting local gunshops, and frequenting our shooting ranges, that do maintain our memberships with organizations that fight for our rights (as many as we can), taking anyone who shows an interest in learning about firearms shooting (at our expense in ammunition)and well basically a whole lot of time, money, effort, sweat, and dogged determination. Where was I? Oh yeah the frustrating part. It isnt the media, or the civilian disarmament crowd, I can almost understand their motives. Its the dead weight nutless f**ks who find nothing wrong with riding on the backs of those that do fight by all peaceful means for their right to keep and bear arms.
So thanks for being worse than the enemies of liberty.
So thanks for being worse than the enemies of liberty.
