Albuquerque, NM camper shooting...

[MOTOR51]

Now before everyone goes all thin blue line on this I'll make clear that I am all for officer safety. I don't think they should take unnecessary risks. Approaching this guy, stun grenade or not, was not necessary - it manufactured the risk. No one was in immediate danger here and he shouldn't have been approached. Just sit back and use less than lethal until he complies.

OK, it's now apparent that you know nothing of police tactics or any tactics for that matter if I'm understanding you correctly. How man bean bags is acceptable to shoot at a person? Have you ever observed bean bag rounds in use? Do you have any training on a taser and their effective range? Where does all of your experience come from?

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[MOTOR51]

First of all, they could've maintained plenty of distance to tase or bean bag him without risking anything. If he lunges, that is different. He made no attempt to stab them - they gave him the opportunity by getting close. He could've been easily disarmed without deadly force from a safe distance.

And job number one is not to go home to wife and baby These are civilians dealing with other civilians - this isn't combat. This paramilitary mindset that is pervading police was humorous in the past but is getting out of control now.

And yes, job number one is to go home to my family. What's so funny about that?

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[JR1572]

I'm saying it is unjustified. Deadly force was certainly not necessary here - I've dealt with situations like this overseas. Deadly force should only be applied if there is a threat to officer safety, which of course there was not. They could have easily tased or bean bagged this guy from a safe distance. I find it disturbing now that we've become so accustomed to it that wielding a knife justifies being shot from a distance. If this is permissible for law enforcement then essentially anything can now be justified as non-compliant and threatening (I'm referring to action not verbal).

First of all, they could've maintained plenty of distance to tase or bean bag him without risking anything. If he lunges, that is different. He made no attempt to stab them - they gave him the opportunity by getting close. He could've been easily disarmed without deadly force from a safe distance.

And job number one is not to go home to wife and baby These are civilians dealing with other civilians - this isn't combat. This paramilitary mindset that is pervading police was humorous in the past but is getting out of control now.

Now before everyone goes all thin blue line on this I'll make clear that I am all for officer safety. I don't think they should take unnecessary risks. Approaching this guy, stun grenade or not, was not necessary - it manufactured the risk. No one was in immediate danger here and he shouldn't have been approached. Just sit back and use less than lethal until he complies.

You don't know what you're talking about.

JR1572

 

[JWG223]

And yes, job number one is to go home to my family. What's so funny about that?

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Not LE or military, but making it home intact is my goal out of any situation. All else is secondary. I don't have a guilt or any other complex. I'm going home.

 

[Jack]

Now before everyone goes all thin blue line on this I'll make clear that I am all for officer safety. I don't think they should take unnecessary risks. Approaching this guy, stun grenade or not, was not necessary - it manufactured the risk. No one was in immediate danger here and he shouldn't have been approached. Just sit back and use less than lethal until he complies.

How many feet is safe distance? Given his response to the flash grenade, would you have confidence that shooting him(outside of a no response shot) if he started running towards an officer would stop him? If an 80 year old lady gets a knife pulled on her by someone at that distance after he screams "bitch I'll kill you" is that a good shoot?

 

[general mills]

When the police approached him, he was unarmed. I figure that is why they got so close, perhaps they were planning on tackling him or something after he was stunned, or just showing they were serious about him getting on the ground. He then threatened them and armed himself with 2 hidden knives. The police responded to this new development by stopping the threat in the most effective manner with equal force. I didn't see them walk up on a guy skinning a squirrel and shoot him because he had a knife, or walk up to a guy wielding a knife and shoot him without trying beanbags or something first. They approached an unarmed man who armed himself, then stopped him. I say good job police. I don't expect anyone to trust their lives to pepper spray, Tasers, or beanbags against a knife.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

First of all, they could've maintained plenty of distance to tase or bean bag him without risking anything. If he lunges, that is different. He made no attempt to stab them - they gave him the opportunity by getting close. He could've been easily disarmed without deadly force from a safe distance.

And job number one is not to go home to wife and baby These are civilians dealing with other civilians - this isn't combat. This paramilitary mindset that is pervading police was humorous in the past but is getting out of control now.

How long are Taser Leads? What is the effective range of the type of bean bag projectile APD uses? How would you have recommended they disarm him? What technique or tool would you have suggested they use?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Radney; what do you do for a living?

 

[MOTOR51]

How long are Taser Leads? What is the effective range of the type of bean bag projectile APD uses? How would you have recommended they disarm him? What technique or tool would you have suggested they use?

I asked the same thing in post #21. Apparently he isnt going to reply.

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[Vanilla Gorilla]

Personally I would have used a Phaser set to stun, or the disarm a violent man with two knives technique. Both are fool proof evidently.

 

[JR1572]

Personally I would have used a Phaser set to stun, or the disarm a violent man with two knives technique. Both are fool proof evidently.

Nate, it's the internet. It's make believe. Just make believe Radney is an expert and he'll be by shortly to tell us how it should be done and us guys who have been out in the field doing this for years will be proven wrong.

Come on. You should know this by now...

JR1572

 

[Gus McCrae]

I watched it, and studied the circumstances..

Here are the facts, The neighbors living in the area called to complain, since it was not a legal spot..
Given the call, the cops had to show up.
Given the fact the guy was ranting about killing them, and would not comply, they escalated the force.. he pulls two knives... he gets shot
They bean bag him to see if he is responsive to pain after he is down, since the knife was in his hand still..

things I learned after some google work.. The guy was considered a mental patient, known to be violent and had cut at least one person a few years prior. (unknown if the responding Leo knew this)


I cant see where any wrong was done.. I went into it, expecting the cops to be winded and shaky from the climb, and sympathetically pulled the trigger due to the cardio/and adrenalin. I did not see that in this vid.. the voices were calm, they called in a negotiator I think or someone trained anyway..

My two cents..

Dave

Yup.

The way I see it: Once you've crossed the threshold of lethal force, all options are open. Doesn't matter if it's a knife or a gun or a iron skillet. You pull a knife on a LEO (or anyone else for that matter) that's lethal force. Prepare to have your ass lit up.

 

[Request Dust Off]

Shoot him. When he is down 1 'JBT' tase him while another 'Pig' gets the knives.

I don't know the proper term so I used tase. To be a 'Pig' or 'JBT' I would need serious training. I see living til you make it home as a goal even if you don't have a wife or kid or parents still alive or friends or cop buddies. I would be quick to use some overkill. Those pesky department policies would be a real nag.

I bet if you were being threatened or held hostage you would be thinking what the hell are they waiting for.

 

[radney]

Hahahahahahaha, like I figured. All ad hominem reactions. Also, the go home to family thing is a warfare mindset, not a policing mindset. This isn't warfare here when civilians deal with other civilians.

I did time in Afghanistan in the Army and while in graduate school had the pleasure of being dragged away from home to police New Orleans for the better part of a year. I have been tased, bean bagged, and tasted freeze +. Was all a necessary part of using them way back then.

I'll reiterate, this could've been ended without risking any officer's safety. Given how the New Mexico Law Enforcement Academy immediately changed their training regimen after this I believe that even paid experts see a real problem here. I'm sure the DOJ investigation isn't any indicator here either since the video so "clearly" shows a "justified" shooting. I have both friends and relatives who are career LEOs and I respect the profession a public service but this us vs them attitude fostering all this rancor isn't becoming or healthy.

Also, a police officer's primary job is to preserve life. It is hard to believe that any trained person would view this guy as an immediate threat unless they chose to walk right up to him and create the chance. Oh, and less than lethal rounds have ranges beyond 20 feet (maybe farther now) which would be enough to remain safe from a hobo with knives (unless you believe the 21 foot rule bs, haha). If he moves toward you, that is different. Now he is aggressing and lethal force is justified. Here, it isn't necessary.

 

[MOTOR51]

Hahahahahahaha, like I figured. All ad hominem reactions. Also, the go home to family thing is a warfare mindset, not a policing mindset. This isn't warfare here when civilians deal with other civilians.

I did time in Afghanistan in the Army and while in graduate school had the pleasure of being dragged away from home to police New Orleans for the better part of a year. I have been tased, bean bagged, and tasted freeze +. Was all a necessary part of using them way back then.

I'll reiterate, this could've been ended without risking any officer's safety. Given how the New Mexico Law Enforcement Academy immediately changed their training regimen after this I believe that even paid experts see a real problem here. I'm sure the DOJ investigation isn't any indicator here either since the video so "clearly" shows a "justified" shooting. I have both friends and relatives who are career LEOs and I respect the profession a public service but this us vs them attitude fostering all this rancor isn't becoming or healthy.

Also, a police officer's primary job is to preserve life. It is hard to believe that any trained person would view this guy as an immediate threat unless they chose to walk right up to him and create the chance. Oh, and less than lethal rounds have ranges beyond 20 feet (maybe farther now) which would be enough to remain safe from a hobo with knives (unless you believe the 21 foot rule bs, haha). If he moves toward you, that is different. Now he is aggressing and lethal force is justified. Here, it isn't necessary.

I'm assuming you are trolling and looking for an argument. How going home to ones family only applies to military is beyond me. I have some friends that were in the national guard and deployed to NO also and they don't have as many cool war stories that you have. Also, were you actually shot with bean bag rounds or just had the opportunity to shoot them. The military had tasers during Katrina? I will have to ask my old MP buddies why they weren't issued them during Katrina.

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[radney]

I'm assuming you are trolling and looking for an argument. How going home to ones family only applies to military is beyond me. I have some friends that were in the national guard and deployed to NO also and they don't have as many cool war stories that you have. Also, were you actually shot with bean bag rounds or just had the opportunity to shoot them. The military had tasers during Katrina? I will have to ask my old MP buddies why they weren't issued them during Katrina.

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Not trolling - been on here for years. I just disagree. And I don't think the National Guard got Tasers in Katrina either. And I shot and volunteered to be shot with one in the leg. I was young and stupid - hurt like a mfer for several days.

 

[tim9lives]

The question in my mind is was the homeless guy a threat to begin with. It sure looked like he was in the middle of nowhere. I can't see a single building anywhere in that video. Granted...maybe there is some sort of development on the other side of that video....maybe somewhere behind the officers.
I can only wonder....if maybe...just maybe...if the cops would have just told the guy that he must move outside of city limits...otherwise when they come back TOMORROW....and if he is still there TOMORROW....he will be arrested.

I'm guessing this guy may have moved on. He'd be alive...and the police would not be facing a Federal Investigation of their tactics. Sure...the guy eventually pulled a knife.

But...before he pulled a knife....he also said...I'm going to turn around...and leave...just don't do anything stupid...and I won't cause any trouble. He did not appear to be looking for a confrontation. Yet...IMO...The cops did want a confrontation. And there lies the problem.

======ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) — The FBI has opened an investigation into the recent police shooting of a homeless camper as he appeared to be surrendering, officials said Friday.

It is the first confirmed criminal investigation of Albuquerque police by federal officials, who more than a year ago launched a civil rights probe of the department over allegations of excessive force and a spike in police shootings. Since 2010, police have been involved in 37 shootings, 23 of them fatal.

In a statement, the FBI said it will investigate the fatal March 16 shooting to "assure the public that a thorough and fair investigation will be conducted."

Community leader Ralph Arellanes hailed the announcement, but he said it was "long overdue."

"This was something that caught the attention of the world," Arellanes, director of the League of United Latin American Citizens' New Mexico chapter and a member of the city's police oversight task force, said in reference to video of the shooting that was posted on numerous websites. "It's a tremendous injustice. A tremendous tragedy. And I also think there are more cases that (the U.S. Department of Justice) needs to refer for criminal proceedings."

Albuquerque police fatally shot James Boyd, 38, in the Sandia foothills following an hours-long standoff and after he threatened to kill officers with a small knife, authorities said. He died after officers fired stun guns, bean bags and six live rounds, authorities said.

But a helmet-camera video showed Boyd, who claimed to be a federal agent, agreeing to walk down the mountain with them, gathering his things and taking a step toward officers just before they fired.

Just hours after hundreds took to the streets Tuesday night to protest that shooting, Albuquerque police shot and killed a 30-year-old man at a public housing complex after authorities said he opened fire on officers.

The next day, Department of Justice officials investigating the Albuquerque Police Department met with community members who have complained about a culture of abuse at the police department and a lack of independent review of shootings by officers. At that meeting, officials indicated they have referred some of the cases to criminal investigators, Arellanes said. But he said they declined to say which cases or how many.

Arellanes said he was "very, very happy" to hear that one of those cases was the Boyd shooting.

Earlier this week, New Mexico Attorney General Gary King said he also plans a probe of the most recent shootings.

 

[MOTOR51]

Not trolling - been on hear for years. I just disagree. And I don't think the National Guard got Tasers in Katrina either. And I shot and volunteered to be shot with one in the leg. I was young and stupid - hurt like a mfer for several days.

You were active duty during Katrina? The "getting drug from my home " led me to believe you were National Guard.

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[Jack]

Hahahahahahaha, like I figured. All ad hominem reactions. Also, the go home to family thing is a warfare mindset, not a policing mindset. This isn't warfare here when civilians deal with other civilians.

I did time in Afghanistan in the Army and while in graduate school had the pleasure of being dragged away from home to police New Orleans for the better part of a year. I have been tased, bean bagged, and tasted freeze +. Was all a necessary part of using them way back then.

I'll reiterate, this could've been ended without risking any officer's safety. Given how the New Mexico Law Enforcement Academy immediately changed their training regimen after this I believe that even paid experts see a real problem here. I'm sure the DOJ investigation isn't any indicator here either since the video so "clearly" shows a "justified" shooting. I have both friends and relatives who are career LEOs and I respect the profession a public service but this us vs them attitude fostering all this rancor isn't becoming or healthy.

Also, a police officer's primary job is to preserve life. It is hard to believe that any trained person would view this guy as an immediate threat unless they chose to walk right up to him and create the chance. Oh, and less than lethal rounds have ranges beyond 20 feet (maybe farther now) which would be enough to remain safe from a hobo with knives (unless you believe the 21 foot rule bs, haha). If he moves toward you, that is different. Now he is aggressing and lethal force is justified. Here, it isn't necessary.

Just like I figured, ignore everything but ad hominem attacks then claim there were nothing but ad hominem attacks.

 

[radney]

Just like I figured, ignore everything but ad hominem attacks then claim there were nothing but ad hominem attacks.

Um, I think I answered the ad rem also.