How to spot a fraud

[CEHollier]

Thanks for posting. An excellent guideline and food for thought. Fifteen years ago we built a house. We weren't sure if we were going to contract the job ourselves or hire a contractor. A house next door to our lot was under construction. The soon to be new neighbors wanted us to meet their "great" contractor. We had watched a HGTV program and part of it was spotting a "fraud contractor". Kinda like this piece did. The contractor hit all the "indicators" for being a fraud. We contracted the house ourselves and never looked back. Our neighbors got screwed royally. Shoddy/substandard work and he didn't pay subs or vendors. The contractor skipped town leaving $60,000+ in unpaid bills the home owner was responsible for. Liens were filed and one year later they sold it. Pieces like this can be very helpful.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Come on man we know I was asking about local guys. I'm also open minded enough that I don't think the "other post" or that blog/write up was even talking about the well known trainers. I only asked you because you stated that it was silly to ask for them so I thought you had an idea on what was accepted. I know y'all mods keep y'all's guard up because a lot of people do stir the pot but I asked because I wanna learn to shoot better and wanna spend my time and money the best way I can.

No, "we" didn't know that. I'm discussing the OP's article which is general info. You're still trying to apply and combine it with the other thread, which was a TROLL. I don't know how many different ways I can say it.

I want everyone to train and get their money's worth too man, and it's a tad insulting to imply otherwise. I think my actions have proven that for years in this community. No, I'm not an instructor and never want to be an instructor, but I have spent countless hours setting up classes, contributing to the training community and offering any advice and help I can, including to you bigtattoo.

 

[Bayoupiper]

Who's the author? Lee?

I don't care who you are that's funny.



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[bigtattoo79]

No, "we" didn't know that. I'm discussing the OP's article which is general info. You're still trying to apply and combine it with the other thread, which was a TROLL. I don't know how many different ways I can say it.

I want everyone to train and get their money's worth too man, and it's a tad insulting to imply otherwise. I think my actions have proven that for years in this community. No, I'm not an instructor and never want to be an instructor, but I have spent countless hours setting up classes, contributing to the training community and offering any advice and help I can, including to you bigtattoo.

Your right SR you said he was a troll so I won't ask anymore its now Law!!
I quoted and asked you because you have given me advise before and I trust your opinion.
I damn sure never felt you didn't want people to get trained I was just pointing out it doesn't look good for new guys to read stuff like that.
I thought all this was about the new guys on the block. "I" never once thought any of this was about the well known guys.

Thanks

 

[SpeedRacer]

Your right SR you said he was a troll so I won't ask anymore its now Law!!
I quoted and asked you because you have given me advise before and I trust your opinion.
I damn sure never felt you didn't want people to get trained I was just pointing out it doesn't look good for new guys to read stuff like that.
I thought all this was about the new guys on the block. "I" never once thought any of this was about the well known guys.

Thanks

So you don't trust my opinion, but totally trust my opinion. Got it.

Like I said any of our mods or dozens of members that saw the thread through can verify for you, I said that 5 posts ago as I'd never expect anyone to actually believe me since I'm the big bad admin. You're right it doesn't look good for new members, which is exactly why the other thread was removed. This thread on the other hand would have been a good resource, minus bringing up the stupid drama.

 

[bigtattoo79]

So you don't trust my opinion, but totally trust my opinion. Got it.

Like I said any of our mods or dozens of members that saw the thread through can verify for you, I said that 5 posts ago as I'd never expect anyone to actually believe me since I'm the big bad admin. You're right it doesn't look good for new members, which is exactly why the other thread was removed. This thread on the other hand would have been a good resource, minus bringing up the stupid drama.

Wow dude really? So if I trust your opinion I can no longer ask anyone else for their opinion? And if I trust your opinion on sights I must trust your opinion on building a house?
Then if I ask your opinion on checking out a trainer and you respond with you don't know what's acceptable to ask I should trust you in saying its silly to ask for papers LOL. How would you know it's silly to ask if you don't know what's acceptable?

The bottom line is I have taken one class had a blast learned a lot! So I saved money ammo and vacation days to get more training made a list of classes I wanna take and now I have my doubt on if the classes are worth the money and was looking for advice but I guess my words came across as insulting so I was wrong and I'm sorry to all offended.

Thanks

 

[SpeedRacer]

Wow dude really? So if I trust your opinion I can no longer ask anyone else for their opinion? And if I trust your opinion on sights I must trust your opinion on building a house?
Then if I ask your opinion on checking out a trainer and you respond with you don't know what's acceptable to ask I should trust you in saying its silly to ask for papers LOL. How would you know it's silly to ask if you don't know what's acceptable?

The bottom line is I have taken one class had a blast learned a lot! So I saved money ammo and vacation days to get more training made a list of classes I wanna take and now I have my doubt on if the classes are worth the money and was looking for advice but I guess my words came across as insulting so I was wrong and I'm sorry to all offended.

Thanks

The first thing I did was suggested you ask others for their opinion, right? And I said asking for "certifications" is silly. As in number 3 in the article, namely the "Has any organization certified them?" line. There is no certifying body in regards to firearms training, beyond the NRA which doesn't offer much. Hence it being silly to ask about their certifications. The military document thing was a whole 'nother point which I addressed separately and pointed out I'm in no position to give out advice on that. I can see how the two got confused.

 

[bigtattoo79]

The first thing I did was suggested you ask others for their opinion, right? And I said asking for "certifications" is silly. As in number 3 in the article, namely the "Has any organization certified them?" line. There is no certifying body in regards to firearms training, beyond the NRA which doesn't offer much. Hence it being silly to ask about their certifications. The military document thing was a whole 'nother point which I addressed separately and pointed out I'm in no position to give out advice on that. I can see how the two got confused.

It's all good.
I just got everything cleared up via PM.


Thanks

 

[SpeedRacer]

It's all good.
I just got everything cleared up via PM.


Thanks

 

[pangris1]

True that. But I'm glad to know the kind of person he is!

You know what kind of man Kyle Lamb is because someone made an off hand ambiguous comment in an internet thread?

Thats funny, I had to meet the man in order to accomplish that feat.

I found Kyle to be a good man and wish we had more like him.

 

[Fred_G]

Not necessarily. Some companies will only let you progress by taking THEIR classes, which is what #5 is about. Good companies just make sure you do have adequate experience and previous training to not be in over your head and push the safety envelope, regardless who your previous experience is with.

Totally agree with this. I am speaking from my own very limited experience, but I would not want to take a more advanced class with someone who is shooting their new gun for the first time...

Now, this question is a little OT, but I see military and LEO experience brought up often when gun training is brought up. Let me preface this with this info: I am not an instructor, I am not LEO, military, or former. I am not a 'tactical' master. Just drinking a cup of coffee, and asking a question. And I have nothing against military/LEO backgrounds.

OK, with the disclaimer out of the way, and besides the obvious gun background that the military and LEO have, is it really an important thing to look for in an instructor that teaches civilian gun classes? Police run towards a potential situation, while I practice conflict avoidance. I would think the training for military/LEO would be much different than civilian defense.

Of course, there would be many similarities between them as well. Again, just asking, I have taken a few classes from one instructor, so I am no expert. But am looking to take some classes a little closer to home, so I am curious on the best way to select an instructor. I have seen in some places, that military training is often a 'requirement' for an instructor.

 

[shroom14]

"Police run towards a potential situation, while I practice conflict avoidance. I would think the training for military/LEO would be much different than civilian defense."

While i don't think of myself as a "Tactical Master" even though i have a Bad Ass tactical Goatee. If you are in a situation where you need to use a firearm, conflict avoidance didn't work so you bring the fight to them. Shooting with your back turned running away is not a good idea. Thats my thoughts on why classes are that way

 

[JNieman]

It seems to me that the people who worry most about 'fraud' instructors are the people with the least to lose.

Time and again, the people rumor-milling and gossiping about whether or not the guy is truthful about 90% of his resume versus 95% or 100% or whether anyone has seen his DD214 or has talked to his old patrol buddy or something, are the people who haven't taken any training or taken only 1-2 beginner classes.

You don't need to be a super high speed low drag urban door kicking elite professional to teach someone how to NOT jerk the trigger or how to move during a reload or any other grip-diagnostics that a regular instructor can provide.

If you think your current level of handgun/carbine/shotgun usage is such that only the man who raided Osama Bin Laden's compound could possibly improve your skill level, then you have no idea how much you suck compared to people who /do/ train and /do/ shoot professionally.

If you've been around enough to have taken a handful of classes, maybe taken a 2nd level class with someone - by that time, you probably already have a good list of well-recommended instructors, who they are, what they teach, how they teach it, why they teach it.

 

[JNieman]

So until then - ask around here, ask some respected friends, or check to see if they have some reviews on the internet or "AAR" posts on forums that discuss what they teach. Get a friends opinion on those AARs if they've 'seen enough' to spot a fraud.

 

[Neil09]

It seems to me that the people who worry most about 'fraud' instructors are the people with the least to lose.

Time and again, the people rumor-milling and gossiping about whether or not the guy is truthful about 90% of his resume versus 95% or 100% or whether anyone has seen his DD214 or has talked to his old patrol buddy or something, are the people who haven't taken any training or taken only 1-2 beginner classes.

You don't need to be a super high speed low drag urban door kicking elite professional to teach someone how to NOT jerk the trigger or how to move during a reload or any other grip-diagnostics that a regular instructor can provide.

If you think your current level of handgun/carbine/shotgun usage is such that only the man who raided Osama Bin Laden's compound could possibly improve your skill level, then you have no idea how much you suck compared to people who /do/ train and /do/ shoot professionally.

If you've been around enough to have taken a handful of classes, maybe taken a 2nd level class with someone - by that time, you probably already have a good list of well-recommended instructors, who they are, what they teach, how they teach it, why they teach it.

Good post. I can most assure you, I can take a class with all instructors here, and many MEMBERS at that, and leave a better shooter. **** i'd like to go shoot out back with my LSP neighbor just to get a few pointers.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Totally agree with this. I am speaking from my own very limited experience, but I would not want to take a more advanced class with someone who is shooting their new gun for the first time...

Now, this question is a little OT, but I see military and LEO experience brought up often when gun training is brought up. Let me preface this with this info: I am not an instructor, I am not LEO, military, or former. I am not a 'tactical' master. Just drinking a cup of coffee, and asking a question. And I have nothing against military/LEO backgrounds.

OK, with the disclaimer out of the way, and besides the obvious gun background that the military and LEO have, is it really an important thing to look for in an instructor that teaches civilian gun classes? Police run towards a potential situation, while I practice conflict avoidance. I would think the training for military/LEO would be much different than civilian defense.

Of course, there would be many similarities between them as well. Again, just asking, I have taken a few classes from one instructor, so I am no expert. But am looking to take some classes a little closer to home, so I am curious on the best way to select an instructor. I have seen in some places, that military training is often a 'requirement' for an instructor.

It's a lot less important than people think, and the reason is a think there's a lot of misconception about what trainers teach.

The fact is, fundamentals are fundamentals and proven methods are proven methods, and they have been for a long time. If you ever hear an instructor say "I invented this"...demand a refund and walk away, because they're either lying or about to teach you some ********.

Different instructors have different methods of delivering and reinforcing content, some better than others, but the material is (should be) 90% the same across the board. There are obviously small variations that exist from instructor to instructor, which is why another red flag is the "this is THE way" mentality. A good instructor will instead say "this is how I prefer to do it and I know it works, but you should find what works for you."

So, as it applies to your question...does combat experience matter, when the content taught is mostly universal? Depends really. Fact is, most people in combat and law enforcement never even learned some of the material, especially the more advanced stuff. So to me personally, simply being a cop or being a combat vet does not a good instructor make. With a special operations/SWAT/etc background, at least you know they've received a higher level of training and have experience to back it up, hence the tendency for that to be viewed positively. That said, is E=mc2 any less true if taught to you by a science teacher as opposed to Albert Einstein himself? More important is that the person teaching you knows why E=mc2 and can convey that information to you in a succesful manner. Obviously I'd rather learn it from a science nerd with a PHD than a high school dropout who read a science book once.

Simply put, there are great instructors with great resumes, horrible instructors with great resumes, and great instructors that may have less than impressive resumes on paper. Paul Gomez was an example of the latter, he had minimal military and law enforcement experience, but was a true student of the art and was as knowledgeable, if not more so, about all things gun-related than anyone else I've met or trained with. And he was a great guy and great instructor to boot.

Moral of the story is you can't put too much stock in resumes. Look at the big picture, and as was mentioned get feedback from people's opinions you trust, because it means a lot more than what's on paper.

 

[Bayoupiper]

Does combat or LEO experience matter?

I'd say that depends on what is being taught.


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[SpeedRacer]

Does combat or LEO experience matter?

I'd say that depends on what is being taught.


.

Only to the extent mentioned above. And, I'm discussing it from the civilian training perspective, not house clearing and helo jumping ninja stuff, in which I would think experience plays a much larger role. And even that line is blurred as the military and law enforcement community is hiring more and more competition shooters to train soldiers and officers, as they really are the masters of fundamentals. So I agree with your "depends" statement...what are they teaching and what are you looking to get out of it. I don't plan on going to combat anytime soon, so to me war stories only serve to entertain and help reinforce that the instructor knows the material and knows it works to an extent.

 

[JBP55]

You know what kind of man Kyle Lamb is because someone made an off hand ambiguous comment in an internet thread?

Thats funny, I had to meet the man in order to accomplish that feat.

I found Kyle to be a good man and wish we had more like him.

bigtattoo, PM pangris1 and ask for a list of Qualified Instructors local or otherwise that may fit your needs.

 

[Jack]

I already discussed this with bigtattoo, but I'll leave this as a general note to everyone here. If you are concerned with the resume of a specific trainer or aren't sure if you will be getting quality instruction, make a thread here. There is so much knowledge and experience on this board that you will get a good answer. The only caveat is that there are also a lot of bumbling idiots here who are more than willing to give their incompetent buddies tuggers, though this has became far less common. Listen to the people with experience, who shoot, not the ones who are on this forum as a social networking facebook substitute.