Why is a $3K 1911 better than a $389 Glock 19?

[Fred_G]

I'll always take 16 in the weapon and 15 in the spare mag over 8 and 7, respectively.

With this train of thought, we'd still be using 5 round, 30-06 M1 Garands instead of 30 round, 5.56/.223 M4 carbines.

Time to move forward and evolve folks.

Was 9 and 8, rounds, but... Are we going to war, or to the Quickie Mart? Do you carry your AR to the gas station, with a couple of extra mags?

Carry what you feel comfortable with.

Why would you carry an inferior weapon when you can carry a carbine, with 30 rounds per mag?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Because life is about compromises. I can't conceal a rifle. I can easily conceal a lightweight pistol containing 16 rounds. Having been in some gunfights, and seen a lot of simulated ones using Sims, there is no way I'm going into one with less than the most amount of bullets I can conceal and carry. I believe in crazy things like Indians Over Arrows and preparing for the fight that might find me rather than the one I'd prefer.

 

[Fred_G]

Because life is about compromises. I can't conceal a rifle. I can easily conceal a lightweight pistol containing 16 rounds. Having been in some gunfights, and seen a lot of simulated ones using Sims, there is no way I'm going into one with less than the most amount of bullets I can conceal and carry. I believe in crazy things like Indians Over Arrows and preparing for the fight that might find me rather than the one I'd prefer.

Since you have experiences in gunfights, which I do not, will listen to your opinion. But, to be on topic, is capacity the only thing you look for in a gun?

Worded this a little wrong. Respect your opinion on all things, in this, perhaps a bit more. Thanks for the info.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Since you have experiences in gunfights, which I do not, will listen to your opinion. But, to be on topic, is capacity the only thing you look for in a gun?

Worded this a little wrong. Respect your opinion on all things, in this, perhaps a bit more. Thanks for the info.

I was addressing the dismissal of capacity in specific. I look for reliability, capacity, accuracy, and carryability in a handgun, to me everything else is a secondary consideration.

 

[Jack]

I agree with a lot of that, but I don't feel undergunned with 9 in the gun, and 8 in my spare mag. Honestly, if you need more than that, you probably brought the wrong weapon. Will have to do some testing, but might be 10 in the gun and 9 in the spare mag, but have not shot it enough to determin reliability.

Serious question, because you confused me. You haven't shot enough rounds through your gun to know how many rounds it holds or did you totally lose me?

 

[Fred_G]

Thanks for the info VG!

And I will admit when I am just plain stubborn. I love my 1911 Commander slide with Officer Grip size 1911.

Right or wrong I carry it every day. I think carrying at least puts me a little up on the ladder. Carrying with a spare mag as well. Ain't never claimed to be perfect.

 

[Fred_G]

Serious question, because you confused me. You haven't shot enough rounds through your gun to know how many rounds it holds or did you totally lose me?

My mags are cut down to officer size by Tripp Research. They hold 9, but they recommend only loading 8 due to some loading issues. So, I load 9 in the first, as I will be carefully loading that in my house, the extra mag is loaded with 8. Until I have shot enough to determine if my gun works well with 9 or 8 rounds. So, 9 and 8.

 

[Jack]

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation, I was really confused.

 

[Fred_G]

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation, I was really confused.

Not a problem, I confuse myself at times. I bought this gun used, but have shot it a lot before I bought it. The mags are new, so taking the conservative route with them. Would rather download by one bullet than have problems with a reload.

 

[323MAR]

I'll always take 16 in the weapon and 15 in the spare mag over 8 and 7, respectively.

With this train of thought, we'd still be using 5 round, 30-06 M1 Garands instead of 30 round, 5.56/.223 M4 carbines.

Time to move forward and evolve folks.

I went to war with 7 mags and a total of 210 rounds of 5.56. I had that combat load with me 24/7 with the expectation of going into battle. Now I feel well protected with either my Glock 32 .357SIG(steel guide rod), Hk P2000SK 9mm or even a S&W Mod 60 .357 in my pocket.
At home, in civilian life, I not only do not expect to get into any firefights, but I do everything I can to avoid them. If it happens, I think 5 rounds of .357 will be enough to stop two people if that is what I have that day.
I love the 1911 design. They are great for competition or fun on the range. I would just rather bet my life on a Glock, HK or a Smith revolver.

 

[Fred_G]

I went to war with 7 mags and a total of 210 rounds of 5.56. I had that combat load with me 24/7 with the expectation of going into battle. Now I feel well protected with either my Glock 32 .357SIG(steel guide rod), Hk P2000SK 9mm or even a S&W Mod 60 .357 in my pocket.
At home, in civilian life, I not only do not expect to get into any firefights, but I do everything I can to avoid them. If it happens, I think 5 rounds of .357 will be enough to stop two people if that is what I have that day.
I love the 1911 design. They are great for competition or fun on the range. I would just rather bet my life on a Glock, HK or a Smith revolver.

Your life, your bet. I respect that.

 

[doc ace]

I went to war with 7 mags and a total of 210 rounds of 5.56. I had that combat load with me 24/7 with the expectation of going into battle. Now I feel well protected with either my Glock 32 .357SIG(steel guide rod), Hk P2000SK 9mm or even a S&W Mod 60 .357 in my pocket.
At home, in civilian life, I not only do not expect to get into any firefights, but I do everything I can to avoid them. If it happens, I think 5 rounds of .357 will be enough to stop two people if that is what I have that day.
I love the 1911 design. They are great for competition or fun on the range. I would just rather bet my life on a Glock, HK or a Smith revolver.

Understandable. You as well as myself would know the importance of capacity over caliber then. We've both been to war and you know good and well your first few rounds have a pretty good chance of not hitting target. Adrenaline and another moving and thinking and shooting target change the game, very, very fast. Of those 5 rounds of .357, one or two may hit. Of those one or two, the chances of it hitting critical or catastrophic kill areas is very minimal.

Hyper vigilance and over preparedness should be tools you carry with you from the military, not leave behind.

Reloading in a gunfight is one of the most stressful situations I've ever experienced, and we trained day in and day out for it.

 

[Vermiform]

Your life, your bet. I respect that.

I respect it too, but I still disagree with it. All handgun rounds suck, therefore more rounds is always better.....to a point.....

 

[pulpsmack]

I respect it too, but I still disagree with it. All handgun rounds suck, therefore more rounds is always better.....to a point.....

Yes, no, maybe. I have yet to witness the phenomena of people ditching G19s for FN 5.7s in order to gain another 10 or so "sucky" rounds.

It is hard to argue against the advantage of capacity overall. However, as illustrated, the asset of capacity becomes less of an asset when the associated drawbacks come into play. 17+1 is an obvious advantage... unless/until the weapon is too clunky to carry, or only carries in a package the user is not as safe, confident, or competent. Another point is that people can use capacity as a crutch. I recall studies years back showing a marked decrease in police accuracy and a marked increase in rounds fired. I will leave correlation/causation up to the reader, but a significant distinction was an officer who had to make all 6 count with his revolver versus the officer who had more than twice that in his auto.

I would love for 1911s to have more capacity. I even cut my teeth on Paras in the glory days when they didn't suck complete ass (pre-2003), and believe it or not, there were some pretty damned good guns made then for a while. The reality is that 1911s do not (and the variants that do really push the weight/bulk envelope of carry), but the advantages of traditional <5" 1911s balance the disadvantages out overall for me since I want a certain size weapon for CCW and insist upon certain features.

 

[Fred_G]

I respect it too, but I still disagree with it. All handgun rounds suck, therefore more rounds is always better.....to a point.....

I see your point. And I would say military and LEO are more likely to need a gun, and more likely to use a gun against multiple targets. We can split hairs all day long. I am comfortable with what I carry, I like it, and actually do some reload practice. Carry and shoot the caliber and gun of your choice.

Don't be hating on us 1911 folks.

 

[pulpsmack]

LEO comparisons are also poor translators in many ways.

- An officer is a "marked target" whose assailants know he is armed.
- An officer is called upon to act offensively as well as defensively
- An officer (generally) carries a "service-sized" weapon within an OWB on a Batman Belt.
- An officer (generally) is in radio contact with backup, which is often present or en route
- An officer has more legal privileges in terms of the use of deadly force, and faces different consequences for its misuse


Useful information can be gleaned from deadly force incidents that does translate, but LEO applications can often be apples/oranges compared to CCW applications.

 

[Vermiform]

Yes, no, maybe. I have yet to witness the phenomena of people ditching G19s for FN 5.7s in order to gain another 10 or so "sucky" rounds.

Hence why I said "to a point", though I have to admit I was almost suckered into the 5.7 hype when it came on the scene. My "Inner Mall Ninja" almost had an orgasm.

 

[323MAR]

I have a FN 57. We use it as a range toy. My wife has trouble putting it down, but would prefer her Smith J frame .38.

 

[323MAR]

LEO comparisons are also poor translators in many ways.

- An officer is a "marked target" whose assailants know he is armed.
- An officer is called upon to act offensively as well as defensively
- An officer (generally) carries a "service-sized" weapon within an OWB on a Batman Belt.
- An officer (generally) is in radio contact with backup, which is often present or en route
- An officer has more legal privileges in terms of the use of deadly force, and faces different consequences for its misuse


Useful information can be gleaned from deadly force incidents that does translate, but LEO applications can often be apples/oranges compared to CCW applications.

Officers do not have more legal privileges than citizens in the use of deadly force. Officers must follow an "Escalation of Force" policy that is not required of CCW holders. This means that a citizen must simply use the Louisiana Deadly Force law when deciding what to do. The officer must also use department procedures in an effort to handle the situation without deadly force. Officers can use deadly force when all else fails or if there is no reasonable alternative.
Here is an example:
A gunman is raising a handgun toward officers during a robbery. The officers are generally required to instruct the armed robber to drop the weapon. Deadly force is authorized if the robber refuses to comply. A CCW holder does not have to give any warning or instructions to drop the weapon. The citizen may use deadly force immediately if there is a reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily harm.

 

[MOTOR51]

Officers do not have more legal privileges than citizens in the use of deadly force. Officers must follow an "Escalation of Force" policy that is not required of CCW holders. This means that a citizen must simply use the Louisiana Deadly Force law when deciding what to do. The officer must also use department procedures in an effort to handle the situation without deadly force. Officers can use deadly force when all else fails or if there is no reasonable alternative.
Here is an example:
A gunman is raising a handgun toward officers during a robbery. The officers are generally required to instruct the armed robber to drop the weapon. Deadly force is authorized if the robber refuses to comply. A CCW holder does not have to give any warning or instructions to drop the weapon. The citizen may use deadly force immediately if there is a reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily harm.

Are you a LEO? If so, then you might need more training. If you are not a LEO please do not try to explain LE work.