Why is a $3K 1911 better than a $389 Glock 19?

[madwabbit]

Simple yes or no question: Does your department have an "Escalation of Force" policy?

Of course. But you've skewed the context into some fantasy world that simply isn't true.

More accurately answered: No, my department does not have any policy that requires me to politely ask someone pointing a gun at me during a robbery to please put it down. Just so your idea doesn't give some internet wacko any ideas, let me reinforce my statement with this: If you point a gun at a police officer, you've just initiated a gun fight.

You claim to have some experience with escalation of force, if you did you should know that officers will be responding at a level higher than what you present them with. Logic dictates that if you're pointing a gun, whats the +1?

 

[bigtattoo79]

My gun of choice is the G-19 based on:
reliability
ease of function
ease of disassembly/assembly
accuracy
mag capacity
cost of replacement parts
replacement parts drop in
value

I did carry a 1911 for a couple years and must say it was:

accurate
reliable "most of the time"






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jack]

Yes. I will speak about my department because that is what I know about. Every year our training gets better and we haven't dropped any qualification standards.

Law enforcement firearms qualification has been rounded down to the least common denominator for so many years that it is now laughable.

I've seen many officers that I would not trust with a potato gun and definitely would not trust the to back me up on a hot scene.
But that's the whole point, to make it so easy that people who should not be carrying guns and badges are.

.

Mine was a revolver as well but that was 40 years ago and the course was more difficult Pre POST.

Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
Reese...

The P.O.S.T. Council finally got funding and was made official in the late 70s. The first "official course of fire" was promulgated in 1980, I believe.

I cannot speak for other agencies, but up until 1981-82, LSP fired the NRA National Match "course" for qualification. 60 rounds:

12 rounds @ 7 yards in 25 seconds standing no support
18 rounds @ 25 yards in 90 seconds (6 kneeling non-supported, 6 each left-and right hand barricade standing supported)
24 rounds @ 50 yards in 160 seconds (6 sitting non-supported, 6 prone, 6 left and 6 right hand barricade standing supported)
6 rounds @ 25 yards in 12 seconds standing no support

It was and is, depending upon what target is used, quite challenging; particularly when one is loading out of his pocket or a dump pouch. We were issued, and required to use, the latter in the LSP Academy. They wouldn't let us use speedloaders. When I asked why not, I was told to STFU... (we were allowed to carry and use speedloaders after graduating. I have no clue what the deal was with that- one of life's little mysteries) . We shot it on the B-27; anything inside the 8 ring was five points; anything between the 8 ring and 7 ring was four points; anything outside of the 7 ring but still "on the black" was three points. Possible 300 points, needed 225 to pass.

Again, AFAIK, only State Police and the possum cops did any serious 50 yard shooting. I know that some other agencies used a variation of this National Match course, minus the 50 yard stage (they put those 24 rounds somewhere else, up close).

The new, "official" P.O.S.T. course was as follows (sorry, don't recall the time allowances, but they were generous):

6 rounds @ 2 yards
12 rounds @ 4 yards
24 rounds @ 7 yards
18 rounds @ 25 yards

Everything except the 25 yard stage was shot standing with no support (at 7 yards, 6 rounds were shot kneeling no support and 6 rounds off-hand only)

The 25 yard stage was the same as the National Match course (kneeling and barricades). This course was fired until 1992, when it was substantially dumbed down (mainly in the scoring method) and the P1 target was adopted.

It was changed yet again in 2008, ostensibly to be "more realistic". In truth, they took six rounds out of the 25 yard stage and put them at 15, to help the "disadvantaged shooters". Don't ask; just think about it...

To effectively instruct something you have to have mastered the subject at the practioneer level. If you have to use a tricked out revolver it tells me you haven't done that. Im not pointing this at you specifically RL just in general. The LA POST commission is a joke. They have never encountered a standard they can't lower or practice they can't circumvent. Thanks Sheriff's Association!

.

 

[US Infidel]

My gun of choice is the G-19 based on:
reliability
ease of function
ease of disassembly/assembly
accuracy
mag capacity
cost of replacement parts
replacement parts drop in
value

I did carry a 1911 for a couple years and must say it was:

accurate
reliable "most of the time"

WTF?? Are you trying to get this thread back on topic??

 

[madwabbit]

I'm confused. Are you guys debating leo training or just the POST in general?

The LA POST is a "test" to satisfy a checklist of government requirements. I wouldn't consider it "training" - you don't learn anything out there. Training was what happened later- in classrooms and at the range. That's where I was taught and learned new things.

One's a test. The other is training. Just because the post is easy doesn't mean they stop training.

With that in mind, what exactly are you guys on about?

 

[madwabbit]

WTF?? Are you trying to get this thread back on topic??

no thread in the history of bayoushooter has ever hit 30 pages without being derailed repeatedly. (Except maybe the almighty Fence thread)

I'll assume some guilt there, admittedly lol.

 

[MOTOR51]

I already said it wasn't the most challenging so that's irrelevant. The revolver POST was way before my time and your time. POST has changed a little since that was posted but is still easy. With that being said, they didn't lower the standards. Training as a whole has been getting better with my department and with others that I am friends with and that I deal with at work. As far as the VG comment thrown in I have no clue about being a master of all skills with a pistol. I do know that I am much closer to mastering LE and the budgets and training than you are due many years doing this job.

 

[MOTOR51]

I'm confused. Are you guys debating leo training or just the POST in general?

The LA POST is a "test" to satisfy a checklist of government requirements. I wouldn't consider it "training" - you don't learn anything out there. Training was what happened later- in classrooms and at the range. That's where I was taught and learned new things.

One's a test. The other is training. Just because the post is easy doesn't mean they stop training.

With that in mind, what exactly are you guys on about?

I thought training but apparently POST is all the training LE gets. That's why you have to take weekend classes.

 

[Jack]

N

I already said it wasn't the most challenging so that's irrelevant. The revolver POST was way before my time and your time. POST has changed a little since that was posted but is still easy. With that being said, they didn't lower the standards. Training as a whole has been getting better with my department and with others that I am friends with and that I deal with at work. As far as the VG comment thrown in I have no clue about being a master of all skills with a pistol. I do know that I am much closer to mastering LE and the budgets and training than you are due many years doing this job.

Post isn't a standard?

 

[MOTOR51]

So because we haven't shot from the 50yrd line in many many years then that makes the standards lower? Why do you continue to argue with people about subject matters that you have no experience with. Training as a whole has improved and the standards of training has improved for my department.

 

[Jack]

So because we haven't shot from the 50yrd line in many many years then that makes the standards lower? Why do you continue to argue with people about subject matters that you have no experience with. Training as a whole has improved and the standards of training has improved for my department.

Yes, it makes the standard held for qualification lower. I don't see what argument there is to be had here. Post has been made easier in the time since semi-autos replaced revolvers, post is a standard(it is actually what the S stands for), as such the standard has been lowered since the transition from revolvers. Is any part of what I've just said untrue?

 

[MOTOR51]

Yes, it makes the standard held for qualification lower. I don't see what argument there is to be had here. Post has been made easier in the time since semi-autos replaced revolvers, post is a standard(it is actually what the S stands for), as such the standard has been lowered since the transition from revolvers. Is any part of what I've just said untrue?

I can shoot a p target from 50 yards all day long with a 686 revolver. Hats why a **** load of people use it to get their instructor certification. I do not believe it's easier now. Seems like it was easy then also. I naturally took to handgun shooting but do not see old timers finding today's course easier. That's just my experience though.

 

[bigtattoo79]

I can shoot a p target from 50 yards all day long with a 686 revolver. Hats why a **** load of people use it to get their instructor certification. I do not believe it's easier now. Seems like it was easy then also. I naturally took to handgun shooting but do not see old timers finding today's course easier. That's just my experience though.

How many times have you took the post?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MOTOR51]

I've shot it over a hundred easily

 

[bigtattoo79]

I've shot it over a hundred easily

Damm!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MOTOR51]

Damm!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You shoot it repeatedly in the academy and then at least once a year. If you practice you can shoot it a lot more. I've been in LE for a little while.

 

[Jack]

I can shoot a p target from 50 yards all day long with a 686 revolver. Hats why a **** load of people use it to get their instructor certification. I do not believe it's easier now. Seems like it was easy then also. I naturally took to handgun shooting but do not see old timers finding today's course easier. That's just my experience though.

That's fair enough, I disagree with it, but you're entitled to your opinion. For my part, I doubt Steve would be able to shoot the former qualifications blindfolded, unlike the current.