FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28 Your Comments

[Sin-ster]

I type roughly 160 WPM, stream of consciousness. That took me less time to write than it would have taken you to read and comprehend it-- which clearly didn't happen.

To try to get you to understand what "recoil management" really means would be an effort indeed. My guess is that this entire thread could have been dedicated to the cause, and fallen woefully short. And that's why I didn't bother.

But it's become painfully obvious that despite an impressive vocabulary and reasonably solid grasp of the English language, you really struggle with comprehension of facts and argument formation. Some of the highlights from you last post:

Using an example of someone who survived a headshot at close range to strengthen an argument about lethality. (Certainly happens with all pistol calibers, but... probably not something you want to try to twist into "OMG 5.7 is awesome".)

Expecting us to put a lot of stock in these accounts, despite one containing reference to the use of "an old fashioned pistol", while you later claim the revolver was never used.

Referring to the M9 as venerable and insinuating that its failure weakens the non-5.7 stance, despite the fact that it's much loathed-- on this board, and by those who have carried it in anger. (Indication that the only thing you spend time researching is the Five-seveN, perhaps? That's a pretty widely accepted fact in the online firearms community...)

Talking about "unverified internet accounts" and then making statements like:

This spraying in a fanlike motion is most likely responsible for a lot of the "limb shots" as he was just trying to hit as many people as possible during this period.

And...

I'm wondering if this didn't happen to a lot of people - 5.7mm bullets flying around a room and cutting through cubicle walls as well as people's limbs and penetrating yet more victims. A cubicle wall as well as a human forearm isn't going to slow a 5.7mm bullet very much at all.

All the while trying to make a case for a gun that's easy to shoot accurately and quickly. So which is it, Sherlock-- aimed fire, or random spraying? Oh, I know-- it's whatever combination of the two best suits your position. Duh!

And on, and on, and on.

But yeah. Feel free to twist words around to help you out-- as per "not worth the time to <accomplish specific task>", suddenly transformed into "1000 word rant despite not having time". I don't have time to talk about recoil management ≠ I don't have time to talk. That's 100 level stuff-- get it down before you graduate!

And don't YOU love someone who can't come up with something better than, "Cool story Bro"! Somewhere out there, that's got to be recognized as the universal symbol of the idiot's white flag...

Any other pop culture, video game or internet memes you wanna pull out, go right ahead. Just be sure to tack it into my list of examples about willfully/ignorantly weakening one's own argument, found ^^^.

 

[goteron]

I just wish I could get an XDm chambered in 5.7, it would be the ultimates!

 

[Sin-ster]

Anybody that knows anything about handguns knows it's all about shot placement. The second somebody starts to compare calibers it all turns to folly and their credibility goes out the window. The Five-seveN isn't THE choice for a self-defense handgun, it is A choice; a very good choice I would like to think, but a choice nonetheless.

So why is this thread FILLED with "data" about ballistic performance, littered with pictures of dead (four legged, often thin skinned) animals, and marked by a long analysis of the wounding capability of the 5.7 pistol used in the Fort Hood shooting?

There is of course the YouTube stud, and his uber-fast Bill Drill... But I find a distinct lack of this key point, which anyone who knows ANYTHING about handguns will concede, mentioned in your post. You would imagine if the entire argument hinged upon said point, and the argument was so easy to win... It would have been mentioned a bit more often?

 

[Sin-ster]

I just wish I could get an XDm chambered in 5.7, it would be the ultimates!

RJF? You dreamt it-- they can build it?

 

[ericlosh]

hey 20+1 flush is awesome, add on an inch and a half for 30+1 now you got my attention, but along with price(mainly for ammo, the gun is a small investment for the ammo youll put through it. a compact model would be nice.), the availability of the ammo is what kills it for me. Also, if the gun was priced at closer to $700.
Carry what youre comphy with(ammo wise too), as the 5.7 guys keeps saying shot placement is key(you all know this i know) and with the mag extension with 30+1 thats alot of chances to get that shot placement. I do think comparing the 33 round glock mags to the 30 round 5.7 mags is a horrible comparison. That thing sticks out so far, the extended mag on the 5.7 sounds like it barely sticks out.

 

[ericlosh]

if they made a .22lr conversion kit for the 5.7, that would solve the main problem for me and make the gun an attractive option. The recoil would be about the same i assume?

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

I want to leave the good folks that are enjoying the informational side of this thread with one of the best put-together ballistics tests of the 5.7x28mm platform to date. Modern ammo is used, standardized protocols are carefully followed, and the test was attended by 5.7 haters as well as 5.7 lovers. What follows is an introduction to this really well done test with a little spice added for flavor.



Recently there were a group of guys that got together to - once and for all - prove or disprove the 5.7 platform as a sufficient answer to human threats. This was going to be attended by 5.7 fanboys as well as a contingent of the Gary Roberts DDS Borg Collective. Of course those from the "dark side" - or should I say dentist's side - came with preconceived notions all built around hearsay, 10-20 year old research, and the words (most copy-pasted) from one very crusty and biased internet legend.

To make a long story short, their eyes were opened. When they saw the reality of the effectiveness of the 5.7x28mm platform, they were left in a very uncomfortable position. How could their leader at M4Carbine have been so wrong? With highly "scientific" anecdotes like these: "One of our guys shot a gunman the other day with the P90 at about 7 yards. One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin. -Gary Roberts DDS" - how in the world could you ever doubt their credibility? I'm sure he wasn't using interweb hearsay as a basis to infer that the P90 shooting SS190 ammo could be compared to an air rifle was he? That wouldn't be the kind of thing a professional ballistician who enjoys the ear of the FBI would do; that's the kind of comment you would expect from a faceless forum troll.

We've all heard the story about the brave military officer at Fort Hood that had her femur shattered in hundreds of pieces from over-the-counter 5.7 civilian ammo fired through the Five-seveN pistol (fires 5.7mm rounds at less velocity than a P90). We also know the femur to be the strongest and largest bone in the human body. On the other hand, ribs are much more vulnerable. It's not uncommon to hear of rib fractures due to coughing and sneezing. The 5.7x28mm isn't the perfect bullet, but one thing it does very well is penetrate objects - especially from 7 yards. SS190 fired out of the P90 travels at 2400fps and delivers 400 ft-lbs of energy to its target and begins to tumble within an inch or two after impact. It will penetrate CRISAT or Level IIIA vests at a range of 200m. The P90's rate of fire is 900 RPM - that's 15 rounds every second. If the story about SS190 stopping just under the skin is true, the man who was shot was standing behind a 1/4 inch of solid steel.

Another P90 urban legend touted like gospel from the mountaintop's of places like Lightfighter and M4Carbine is this little piece of fiction: "The other guy was shot 10-12 times before he told the officers 'stop shooting me' and gave up." Now we all know that ONE P90 will deliver 15 rounds in 1 second. However, based on "expert testimony" from this esteemed ballistician, we are supposed to believe that all this action and subsequent surrender happened within 2/3rds of a second? Perhaps they were shooting their P90's in semi-auto? If so then why? You would be taking the P90's greatest advantage (high rate of accurate fire) out of the equation. Do police officers only shoot one or two times to bring down a threat? No, usually it will be several officers unleashing a flurry of bullets until the attacker drops.

The P90 firing SS190 in full auto will deliver 15 bullets on target in 1 second. That would be like 7 or 8 officers firing 2 shots of 9mm/45ACP (400 ft-lbs) all at the same time, at the same target, within one second. Or wait a minute, did Gary just accidentally conclude that all major pistol calibers (9mm, .40, .45) used by police and military today are ineffective at bringing down threats? I read about it happening every day in my local newspaper. Perhaps they are using super duper police bullets...

The following is a quote from a participant using the Five-seveN pistol who came to the aforementioned ballistics test convinced that the 5.7mm platform was not a viable choice against human threats: "What was really telling (as to the effectiveness of the 5.7mm round) is when I dumped 6 rds in about 2 seconds and ragged a block (calibrated gelatin per FBI protocol) - basically, it was mush." So that's 3 rounds a second. What if we multiply that number by a factor of 5, add in the increased ft-lbs of energy gained by going from a 4.75 inch barrel (Five-seveN), to a 10.5 inch barrel (P90)? How would the block look now? That would be the effect of the P90; a completely decimated human torso. But I heard from a guy whose friend said that people shot by the P90 have to be told they are getting shot???!!!!!!!!! ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!

I just love the internet. Some of these concocted 5.7 stories are almost believable.. especially if you want to believe them.



Here is the full thread on the comprehensive, unbiased testing of the 5.7mm platform: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=78715

If you don't want to read the entire thread (I highly recommend that you do as it illustrates the thorough preparation and planning of the whole process), you can skip to page 22 and click on the video entitled, "Testing 5.7x28 Ammo".

 

[Sin-ster]

if they made a .22lr conversion kit for the 5.7, that would solve the main problem for me and make the gun an attractive option. The recoil would be about the same i assume?

No.

The recoil impulse of the Five-seveN pistol is comparable to the PMR30, in .22 WMR. You know you're shooting a real pistol when you press the trigger on either of them, due in no small part to their nominal weights. I venture to say that the .22LR compares to these two cartridges much like they in turn compare to the 9mm.

So if you're really sold on reduced recoil impulse, and convinced you can't learn to shoot a more common caliber well, a .22 conversion would not give you a similar feel-- I.E. for true recoil management practice, you're stuck with the cheapest factory stuff you can find.

I'm not even sure what the reloading costs (in $$$ and time) look like for these rounds, TBH. As the projectiles aren't common, nor is the brass-- AND it's a bottlenecked round... Chances are, you're not saving much (if any) in the process, and that's not considering initial set up of the press and such. The advantage would be to mimic/match the aftermarket ammo talked about in this thread, which would almost certainly save you some bucks.

 

[Sin-ster]

I just love the internet. Some of these concocted 5.7 stories are almost believable.. especially if you want to believe them.

An excellent assessment. I advise anyone seriously considering the 5.7 for an SD/HD gun to consider this fabulous quote...

... in regards to each and every thing posted here by the 5.7 proponents.

ETA-- The mythical test... has a dead link.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

I type roughly 160 WPM, stream of consciousness. That took me less time to write than it would have taken you to read and comprehend it-- which clearly didn't happen.

To try to get you to understand what "recoil management" really means would be an effort indeed. My guess is that this entire thread could have been dedicated to the cause, and fallen woefully short. And that's why I didn't bother.

But it's become painfully obvious that despite an impressive vocabulary and reasonably solid grasp of the English language, you really struggle with comprehension of facts and argument formation. Some of the highlights from you last post:

Using an example of someone who survived a headshot at close range to strengthen an argument about lethality. (Certainly happens with all pistol calibers, but... probably not something you want to try to twist into "OMG 5.7 is awesome".)

Expecting us to put a lot of stock in these accounts, despite one containing reference to the use of "an old fashioned pistol", while you later claim the revolver was never used.

Referring to the M9 as venerable and insinuating that its failure weakens the non-5.7 stance, despite the fact that it's much loathed-- on this board, and by those who have carried it in anger. (Indication that the only thing you spend time researching is the Five-seveN, perhaps? That's a pretty widely accepted fact in the online firearms community...)

Talking about "unverified internet accounts" and then making statements like:



And...



All the while trying to make a case for a gun that's easy to shoot accurately and quickly. So which is it, Sherlock-- aimed fire, or random spraying? Oh, I know-- it's whatever combination of the two best suits your position. Duh!

And on, and on, and on.

But yeah. Feel free to twist words around to help you out-- as per "not worth the time to <accomplish specific task>", suddenly transformed into "1000 word rant despite not having time". I don't have time to talk about recoil management ≠ I don't have time to talk. That's 100 level stuff-- get it down before you graduate!

And don't YOU love someone who can't come up with something better than, "Cool story Bro"! Somewhere out there, that's got to be recognized as the universal symbol of the idiot's white flag...

Any other pop culture, video game or internet memes you wanna pull out, go right ahead. Just be sure to tack it into my list of examples about willfully/ignorantly weakening one's own argument, found ^^^.

You are very angry sir.

This post you are attacking was copied from another forum.

No other gun was used in the Fort Hood incident except for the Five-seveN. Hasan was found to be carrying an unfired revolver (as a backup I presume)?

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

An excellent assessment. I advise anyone seriously considering the 5.7 for an SD/HD gun to consider this fabulous quote...

... in regards to each and every thing posted here by the 5.7 proponents.

All they have to do is go rent one and they will be hooked! The ability to place fact accurate shots in the "kill zone" should be enough to convince them. A wise person will know that caliber wars are for mall ninjas. If they want ballistics there are tons of videos available comparing the Five-seveN to other more popular calibers blowing up watermelons, penetrating gelatin, penetrating doors, trees, cans, jugs, deer, pigs, shaving cream cans... you name it.

But the rubber meets the road when it comes to aiming a pistol at a target and hitting it, and there isn't a better pistol for amateurs to do so than the Five-seveN (most of us are amateurs in here save for the resident master time-keeper).

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

And hopefully my final post on this issue will be concerning a recent study detailing what calibers actually do kill people the fastest. Can you guess what the answer is?

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

if they made a .22lr conversion kit for the 5.7, that would solve the main problem for me and make the gun an attractive option. The recoil would be about the same i assume?

I lied, I'm typing more... *sigh*

The recoil on the Five-seveN is about 60-70% of a standard 9mm load. You can reload Five-seveN target ammo for around 7.00 per box of 50. BUT, you must do your homework first because reloading for the Five-seveN requires more accuracy than other commonly reloaded calibers. You can get a lot of reloading info at fnforum.net. Of course you have to buy some 5.7 ammo first and fire it so you have the brass. You can pick up SS197 for around 17.00/50 right now.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

hey 20+1 flush is awesome, add on an inch and a half for 30+1 now you got my attention, but along with price(mainly for ammo, the gun is a small investment for the ammo youll put through it. a compact model would be nice.), the availability of the ammo is what kills it for me. Also, if the gun was priced at closer to $700.
Carry what youre comphy with(ammo wise too), as the 5.7 guys keeps saying shot placement is key(you all know this i know) and with the mag extension with 30+1 thats alot of chances to get that shot placement. I do think comparing the 33 round glock mags to the 30 round 5.7 mags is a horrible comparison. That thing sticks out so far, the extended mag on the 5.7 sounds like it barely sticks out.

People pick up used Five-seveN's from time to time for 700.00. You just have to keep your eyes out. I know someone that has put 10's of thousands of rounds through many Five-seveN's and most of those rounds were max pressure or more. The gun is tough so don't worry about it being worn out if it's used.

I have never had a FTF, FTE, Stovepipe, etc. in my Five-seveN. It's been just as reliable as a revolver.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

Sin-ster, I just noticed you were from NOLA. I LOVE that town and take a vacation there whenever I can. Frenchman St. is where you will find me! You can't be that bad if you're from the Big EZ.

 

[ericlosh]

People pick up used Five-seveN's from time to time for 700.00. You just have to keep your eyes out. I know someone that has put 10's of thousands of rounds through many Five-seveN's and most of those rounds were max pressure or more. The gun is tough so don't worry about it being worn out if it's used.

I have never had a FTF, FTE, Stovepipe, etc. in my Five-seveN. It's been just as reliable as a revolver.

yeah, maybe someday, its just a niche thing. as far as the .22 conversion kit i would like, 550 practice rounds for 20bux or so after tax is hard to beat. i will be getting the conversion kit for my g17.

 

[goteron]

That test is severely skewed, and he admits it. Nobody carries ball ammo. .22s are the the most common caliber .That test is nearly worthless. Not to mention it has "stopping power" in the title.

Take a look at the CAG guys, they have access to anything they want, and they carry .40 glocks, as a wise man once said, if it was the "way" then it would be the "way" but it's not. The ballistic tests are interesting, but wound cavities aren't the only contributing factor.

The 20 round argument is stupid, my M&P holds 17+1, and I can place rounds on target quickly and effectively with it.

I have nothing against the FiveseveN, it just doesn't make sense for a civilian.

Flat trajectory doesn't matter at 25yards.

I have yet to see a true to life real ballistics gelatin test completed by someone that isnt looking for 5.7 vindication.

But it all comes back to the CAG shooters. If it was that much better, they would be shooting it, along with P90s.

 

[BAYOU922]

I have heard rumor that the USSS is dumping it

Congratulations, you've heard rumors on the internet. No one cares. Don't post what you can't substantiate.

I did hear from a reliable source that the P90 magazines become a mess if dropped.

Wrong.

That was a myth that originated from an HKPRO writeup on the MP7.

However, you will see precious little use outside of the USSS

Wrong again. The weapons are in use in 40+ countries and are used by hundreds of agencies in the U.S. alone.

You must be blind.

The only people killed were killed by shots that would have had the same outcome had a .22LR been used.

The same goes for just about anyone that has been killed with 9mm, .45 ACP, or any other pistol caliber.

All those people lived. The case FOR the 5.7 in this unfortunate incident is much weaker than the case AGAINST it.

They were shot in limbs and other non-vital areas of their bodies; of course they lived. The fact that you listed the female police officer (who was shot in the leg only) makes it very obvious that you didn't even consider the actual details before posting (like usual).

For the duration of the Fort Hood shooting, every soldier/civilian/police officer that tried to stop the attacker was killed or incapacitated immediately. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting, and two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to pre-trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him).

Anyway, there is absolutely a meaningful conclusion one can draw from the incident -- the caliber kills every bit as consistently as the common pistol calibers. Those shot in vital areas generally died, and those shot in non-vital areas generally survived. However, even those who survived (such as Sgt. Munley) still suffered serious injuries, and with the same shot placement another pistol caliber would have produced the exact same results.

.17 hornet, anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_Hornet


Yep. that's the rifle I want for a 220# PCP'ed up home invader. My good 'ol .17 Hornet.

Can you cite a single instance where a person was shot with a .17 Hornet rifle, let alone such an instance where it actually performed poorly? No, so that comparison is completely useless.

The magazines (PS90) crack when dropped.

Wrong again.

Stick to talking about guns you own and shoot. You're completely clueless on this subject and no one cares what you've "heard" on the internet.

He got off 4 shots in roughly .60-- try to keep up, hmm?

Only four shots in 0.6 seconds? Oh, the horror!

News flash: you're still splitting hairs. Try to stay relevant.

Your knowledge base on the subject is grounded in a sales pitch.

Try: reliable, verifiable information from shootings and other real world use.

You're the one spouting irrelevant conjecture about a gun you don't even own or shoot. Your knowledge base on the subject is grounded in internet rumor.

 

[swamper]

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Ok, it isn't fun to read this anymore... ya'll have at it.

Some I disagree with, some I don't care about, but I DO want to put out there:

Cars ARE NOT COVER...

For ANYTHING!

And should not be treated as such.