Freedom of Speech Suppression or not? OK restricts Funeral Protesters

[JadeRaven]

Not in the burger King line where some guy is using the F Bomb and talking about how LSU sucks Bama rocks.

Even then we have laws against profanity, state and federal, which have withstood the legal system for years.

 

[geoney]

In your opinion, is that what Westboro Protesters are doing?

I would say it falls under the freedom of speech, not petition, though I am sure they can make a political argument of it on their end.

They are despicable, but they have the rights that the military men and women died protecting.

 

[JNieman]

Freedom of Speech, like most sacred rights, should be inalienable. It's not about saying '****' to the BK lady or expressing your sports team... but you can't really ban that without hurting the sacred reasons for speech. That's why I don't think you can ban funeral protest in the public realm and NOT hurt our inalienable rights. The minute you start drawing nice little lines in the country of "protest-free zones" you've already lost. Government doesn't rescind power, and they'll keep using it, citing this as a precedent. I'm cynical like that.

I'd rather deal with the assholes, and retain the ability to be one myself, than to silence my enemies, and know I can never speak up how I wish, when I see the time has come for my ways to be angrily expressed.

People keep debating whether or not Westboro is ok, but that's not what the law is about. It was inspired by them, but the law is neutral. The law goes to /everyone/. Westboro is just the "emotional" issue they use to drive a universal law through. Like Sandy Hook was used to motivate gun control that applies to myriad other ways, and some irrelevant to the motivational event. Westboro is blinding people to impartiality.

 

[JNieman]

Oh, and I forgot to address all the questions in my spiel.

I think the current regulations on slander/libel are fine, as far as limitations to speech. Lies cause actual damage and in realms where your character is a large part of what your family or business rely upon, it can do harsh tangible damage, and when based upon lies, I don't see it being worthy of protection. I think barring people from doing damage to a person via speech is fine - just like the RTKBA does not mean you can shoot anyone you want without just cause.

 

[Emperor]

Keep in mind I'm not playing tricks here, no rhetorical questions etc. Just honestly trying to figure out folks difference of opinion on this very particular issue.

I find it complex, others do not.

What I want to know is just how far if at all Freedom of Speech should be allowed?

I'm waiting on SVT to finish his workout but for the rest, for example Westboro;

-are you ok with putting WHATEVER on the signs?
-are you ok with them being able to say whatever they want?
-When/Where/How would you regulate Freedom of Speech(Assuming you think that means you should be able to say whatever you want) should it be regulated? if at all?

Also Jnieman I don't think it's the same. Yes there are assholes, oddly enough I too talked to my son about this yesterday. Of course people say stupid **** all the time. Most ALL the time it should be ignored. But we’re talking a Funeral. A burial of a family member where mourning and grieving is taking place. Not in the burger King line where some guy is using the F Bomb and talking about how LSU sucks Bama rocks.

Your struggles with this issue may not be for the same reasons as others. For instance; who says a burial/funeral is sacred across the board? Personally, I think it's a waste of money. And the grief revisited after the fact and because of a funeral is morbid and unnecessary. Again, IMHO. And of course, to each his/her own. Another fundamental Right.

And let's look at the media parasites that would slash and burn anyone that got in the way of their precious 1st A Rights, but will advocate and sometimes even encourage powers that be to squelch others when it doesn't involve them directly. Even though they can be too vapid to see it does.

It's the hypocrisy of it all that makes me ill.

If you want true liberty, you get it in all it's glory with heaping helpings of this crap too! And perceived inequities for dessert.

 

[JNieman]

So let me counter your Westboro funeral example with one of my own.

Do you think this law, if passed, would allow Catholics to stand outside abortion clinics with vulgar signs and protest the application of abortion treatments with pregnant women walking into the clinic right there?

Should that be allowable?

Should that be forbidden?

Should that be allowed but in different ways?

If it's not the same, as Westboro, why not?

 

[Lckstcknbrrl]

It's the hypocrisy of it all that makes me ill.

If you want true liberty, you get it in all it's glory with heaping helpings of this crap too! And perceived inequities for dessert.[/QUOTE]


+100 for the win!

 

[Hitman]

EMP I get your point and agree. It's the same concept in Mass Shootings. Where liberty is, there will also be evil folks who wish to use it to their advantage. the problem is the Gov. restricting us in a way that leaves us vulnerable to these evil folks. Anyway I digress

The minute you start drawing nice little lines in the country of "protest-free zones" you've already lost.

Right but like your other thread, this is more specific to Funerals/Cemeteries

Do you think this law, if passed, would allow Catholics to stand outside abortion clinics with vulgar signs and protest the application of abortion treatments with pregnant women walking into the clinic right there?

Yes they would be able to still do that.(Are they vulgar signs?)
Anyway the Law is about Funerals and it did pass already. It's an OK State Law, not Federal Law.

Should that be allowable?

Should that be forbidden?

Should that be allowed but in different ways?

If it's not the same, as Westboro, why not?

We can’t bring Abortion into this. That’s subject would take a face to face. No way can I talk about all that goes into that over a keyboard.

Maybe try another example?

 

[JNieman]

I thought the bill still had to be signed by the governor. I misread it, my bad.

Here's my point in bringing up examples.

The core of this law is the Government giving legal protections that keep people from protesting a specific religious function. That is basically a literal face-value factual and simple infringement on an inalienable right. A "litmus test" to whether that's true or not is hard to do. The Abortion thing is about the only other example I could think of where limiting a protest because of "religious reasons" was obvious.

What if they also banned prayer near the WTC memorial?

 

[Peacemaker]

So let me counter your Westboro funeral example with one of my own.

Do you think this law, if passed, would allow Catholics to stand outside abortion clinics with vulgar signs and protest the application of abortion treatments with pregnant women walking into the clinic right there?

Should that be allowable?

Should that be forbidden?

Should that be allowed but in different ways?

If it's not the same, as Westboro, why not?

I think protesting at an abortion clinic is appropriate.. Protesting at a funeral should be illegal.. Just my $0.02.. Let the flaming begin....

 

[SpeedRacer]

The hypocrisy is strong in this thread. Everyone wants freedoms...as long as they meet THEIR agenda.

 

[JNieman]

I think protesting at an abortion clinic is appropriate.. Protesting at a funeral should be illegal.. Just my $0.02.. Let the flaming begin....

Do you think that's constitutional or is that just what you personally want?

 

[Hitman]

Let me be more direct. Also don't accuse me of acting on emotion and just leave it at that. Funerals are an emotional time, no doubt about that. Well I guess. I view death much differently. Anyway.

DON'T PEEK

Seeing the pic below. DON'T PEEK!

Seeing the pic below, WHERE should Westboro Protesters be? and WHAT should they be allowed to say?

Should they be right next to the grieving relative? and be able to yell at that person that his Father was a FAGGOT and DESERVED TO DIE! or should they be 10 feet away? 50 Feet?

The way I see you guys say it, it seems Westboro should be allowed to say whatever they want to that little boy and sit right next to him while saying it.

No? If not explain.

or should he be able to accept that flag in peace and quiet surrounded by loved ones?


Speed you didn’t quote anyone, so I hope you don't think I'm a hypocrite on this, I’m trying to figure out what folks think and how to respect everyone at the same time. I for one don't think Churches should be protesting at Abortion Clinics but do see it as different when dealing with the life of a baby. Some don't view it as a life so that's why I said it's a much more complex issue than Yelling obscenities at a funeral.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Let me be more direct. Also don't accuse me of acting on emotion and just leave it at that. Funerals are an emotional time, no doubt about that. Well I guess. I view death much differently. Anyway.

DON'T PEEK

Seeing the pic below. DON'T PEEK!

Seeing the pic below, WHERE should Westboro Protesters be? and WHAT should they be allowed to say?

Should they be right next to the grieving relative? and be able to yell at that person that his Father was a FAGGOT and DESERVED TO DIE! or should they be 10 feet away? 50 Feet?

The way I see you guys say it, it seems Westboro should be allowed to say whatever they want to that little boy and sit right next to him while saying it.

No? If not explain.

or should he be able to accept that flag in peace and quiet surrounded by loved ones?

While I totally agree and understand what you're saying, don't you think a woman should be able to get an abortion (which is completely legal) without being yelled at and harrassed on the way in? I'm sure that's a pretty emotional event for many as well.

[/Devil's Advocate]

It's all or nothing. I prefer all.

 

[SVT]

They have the right to peacefully protest.

that's an interesting question. Let me head to the gym and I'll answer when I get back. Obviously, if the funeral is held on private property they would not be allowed on the premises, which is completely fine.

I do not think they should be allowed next to the coffins...we don't have the right to walk into someone's public gov't office where business is being handled and protest, so we should be consistent and apply that to funerals as well.

Like I said earlier, i'd rather put up with these nutjobs, and know that the gov't doesn't have anymore control over where and what time citizens can protest.

Ultimately, there should be no "public" property. We only have "public" property b/c we have a gov't. If there were no gov't, there would only be private property and stuff like this wouldn't even exist

 

[Hitman]

While I totally agree and understand what you're saying, don't you think a woman should be able to get an abortion (which is completely legal) without being yelled at and harrassed on the way in? I'm sure that's a pretty emotional event for many as well.

[/Devil's Advocate]

It's all or nothing. I prefer all.

Speed you missed my edit and posted while I was adding that

I do not think they should be allowed next to the coffins...we don't have the right to walk into someone's public gov't office where business is being handled and protest, so we should be consistent and apply that to funerals as well.

Like I said earlier, i'd rather put up with these nutjobs, and know that the gov't doesn't have anymore control over where and what time citizens can protest.

Ultimately, there should be no "public" property. We only have "public" property b/c we have a gov't. If there were no gov't, there would only be private property and stuff like this wouldn't even exist

Ok there Mr. Longshot! lol

Although like I said earlier, I understand fully that with Liberty, comes all sorts of other sacrifices that we have to make in order to enjoy that liberty.

 

[JNieman]

Well, I can't exactly refrain from saying you're being emotional, because your main point here is to invoke emotional responses to prove your point. You don't get a pass by asking not to have that pointed out.

IRT sitting next to a grieving person and telling them their dad's a faggot and deserved to die: Trespassing is still illegal, last I checked. If you remain after being told to leave, you get arrested. They don't have to right to sit next to that kid and cuss his father. Even if the kid was right next to my grandad's plot, where we recently buried him at Jefferson Barracks, and I happened to visit his grave, and decided I didn't like the kid's dad - maybe he owed me money, or something - and decided to go cuss up a storm right there. I'm reasonably sure an official acting on behalf of the Cemetery would be hauling my ass off pretty darn quick. But if I'm standing over there on the street sidewalk or some public venue adjacent the property, voicing my displeasure with the to-be-interred, I can't say the government should have the power to say "Sorry, this religion is performing a ritualistic function that we hold more dear than personal rights" I find that to be against the Freedom of Speech the Constitution has specifically provided limitations on Congress (and ergo the States) about.

 

[JNieman]

Ultimately, there should be no "public" property. We only have "public" property b/c we have a gov't. If there were no gov't, there would only be private property and stuff like this wouldn't even exist

You say some really stupid **** in regards to privatizing everything, sometimes. This is one of those times.

 

[Hitman]

Well, I can't exactly refrain from saying you're being emotional, because your main point here is to invoke emotional responses to prove your point. You don't get a pass by asking not to have that pointed out.

IRT sitting next to a grieving person and telling them their dad's a faggot and deserved to die: Trespassing is still illegal, last I checked. If you remain after being told to leave, you get arrested. They don't have to right to sit next to that kid and cuss his father. Even if the kid was right next to my grandad's plot, where we recently buried him at Jefferson Barracks, and I happened to visit his grave, and decided I didn't like the kid's dad - maybe he owed me money, or something - and decided to go cuss up a storm right there. I'm reasonably sure an official acting on behalf of the Cemetery would be hauling my ass off pretty darn quick. But if I'm standing over there on the street sidewalk or some public venue adjacent the property, voicing my displeasure with the to-be-interred, I can't say the government should have the power to say "Sorry, this religion is performing a ritualistic function that we hold more dear than personal rights" I find that to be against the Freedom of Speech the Constitution has specifically provided limitations on Congress (and ergo the States) about.

No No No! I'm not asking for a pass, I said don't just say I'm invoking emotion and leave it at that. What i mean is Funerals ARE emotional, so that aspect is already there way before MORE emotional turmoil is added by protesters.

 

[oleheat]

I think these WBC vermin would have no problem doing it, based on how they brainwash their own kids.




This is terribly sad, in it's own right, IMHO.
VVVVV

Anyone think there's an ounce of hate in that innocent child?

WTF is wrong with these people?