LCP 380 Question

[LACamper]

Off the top of my head I can't think of a pistol round that moves at 2100 fps. Even .357 is only about 1400 fps IIRC.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

For HP's to be REALLY effective you need to get up to about 2100 fps. Then you get hydrostatic forces involved. I'm not telling anyone what to carry. For my Makarov I would only use FMJ's because it was only way to guarantee the penetration I believe you need. As a plus they feed reliably in most bottom feeder handguns too. What kills someone or stops the fight for sure is blood loss. End of story. For handguns there's no temporary stretch cavity etc. In my mind two holes are better than one.

Holes in limbs unless you hit a major artery or vein don't really bleed enough to kill someone in a hurry. Plus from talking to pt's I know that they really don't hurt much at first. Limb wounds are not great fight stoppers in general. Holes in the abd if you hit a major solid organ can cause some significant blood loss. The liver is a great example of a solid organ that can rupture when hit with a round. As much as two thirds of your blood is in your liver at any given time.

But in order to bleed out (exsanguinate) the blood has to have somewhere to go. Internal bleeding is bad but not necessarily a rapid fight stopper. You can only bleed so much into the abdominal cavity. Now if you're bleeding into your lungs for example there's lots of space and as a plus you can drown. But if you're bleed into the abd. cavity those organs and connective tissues can only displace so far. The bleeding can actually tamponade off. Meaning that the pressure of blood in the wound has equaled the systolic blood pressure. Which means that the force of the blood leaving the vascular compartment is less than or equal to the pressure inside the compartment of your abd. So bleeding is minimized. Plus blood that's pooled up inside the body unable to go anywhere will start to clot, further reducing immediate blood loss. This is one of the reasons why you take so long to die from a "gut shot." Now then if you have two holes exiting the cavity (both a entrance and exit wound) the blood leaving the vascular compartment has some place to go. The pressure never gets higher than the blood pressure and you can bleed out rapidly.

To give one example for more penetration being important to me. If you fire at a target and hit his arm before striking the chest. (A surprisingly common occurrence. People automatically put their arms up in front of them as a defensive gesture or if they're shooting at you the arm is still in front of them. Plus people tend to shoot at the weapon not the person holding the weapon.) The HP round has either expanded while passing through the arm already reducing its potential energy immensely or hasn't expanded and is now effectively a FMJ. Don't get wrong I carry HP's in certain calibers but only when I can get enough penetration to satisfy me.

Now then I've also seen FMJ's that leave huge exit wounds. For example we had a shooting of a minor with a 38 special FMJ. The bullet entered his back and struck his scapula obliquely. Which I believe flattened out the bullet. It then traveled through the musculature of his back and exited 3 inches to the right of the left shoulder. The exit wound was at least 2 to 3 inches across. Most FMJ exit wounds are not very impressive and difficult to tell from the entrance at first without experience. But bullets do weird things that aren't predictable. Also most FMJ's when I can recover them. I find them in socks, on floor next to the individual, on my stretcher, you get the idea. Are very minimally deformed and aside from the blood and rifling look good enough to use again. That is unless they've hit bone.

Anyway I'm going on and on here so I'll end it. I hope this helps explain my point.

Dave

Also, you postedyou want 16" of penetration. that would be gross over penetration in the average male for a frontal centerm mass shot. ideally you want 8-10" so that the round does not exit the thoracic cavity of the average male depth of 12-16". Also accounting for dense clothing, body fat, etc....
Check your numbers. The rest of your post is good information. Don't want people to ignore the good because you pulled some number out your ass. may be a typo.

 

[buddy_fuentes]

What ever round you choose to carry make sure it'll penetrate at least sixteen inches. Also remember that at the velocities at which handgun rounds travel that very few HP rounds are reliable expanders against people. Against trees, water jugs, ballistic gellatin, etc. they'll expand every time. But not against people. I always recommend going with the heaviest round you can reliably fire from a weapon. Slower heavier rounds will penetrate people better, not deflect off of bones as easily, and get the major vital spots more reliably than lighter faster rounds. Just remember NO round is magic and NO round will guarantee a stop when it comes down to it.

I'd recommend the 100 grain hard cast lead flat nose from Buffalo Bore. Lead interestingly enough deforms as it hits bone but continues to travel generally forward. FMJ do weird things when they hit bone. Like travel around the skull under the skin. I kid you not. I've seen that wound multiple times.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=129
Dave

Dad blast it! I just hate it when I agree with David...For once and only once he is spot on. I worked homicide for ten years and we handle plenty of shootings and kill-ins...the .380 is a very weak cartridge to start with. Then you add a short barrel and you need every advantage available.

I can tell you of cases where they didn't penetrate. It is still way ahead of having nothing, but I would want something that would penetrate if I were to use a mouse gun.

 

[buddy_fuentes]

I well remember when the PPK in .380 was all the rage among State Police narcs... until one in New Orleans lit up a BIG non-swimmer with it; with Super Vels (I bet Buddy remembers those). Emptied the magazine into him from about five feet. Said non-swimmer then proceeded to kick TWO narcs' ass and beat feet outta there. They did get him later, but AFAIK that dude is still walking around today.

There was a sack full of PPKs for sale after that episode...

.

I can personally testify to a buy bust gone bad. I was working Narcotics and we had a deal on 8 kilos of weed near LSU. It turned out to be a rip-off with the dealer planning on shooting the undercover agent and taking the money. The agent was wired and started saying "rip-off" as he was ordered to get on his knees for execution. He then pulled a Walter .380 from his boot and started shooting. the dealer ran for some apts. and my partner and I tackled him and had to tap him a few times to subdue him.

I don't really remember if he was shot three or four times, but the taps broke his jaw and knocked him out.

It should be noted that although the .380 didn't do much damage, it DID STOP HIM FROM SHOOTING THE UNDERCOVER OFFICER.

There was another incident that was almost a mirror of the case above. But I have seen some that were very dead from a .380, .25, .32, and .22's. Shot placement is everything when using a small caliber pistol.

It is just a matter of what you feel comfortable carrying.

 

[dwr461]

I go with 16 inches because of hitting arms first or if the male is standing at an oblique to you. Maybe I'm dealing with a really fat guy or a guy that spent years in prison working out. How about if the round hits a rib or the sternum? I'd like more than just enough penetration to get by for the average male. Particularly for a smaller cartridge. Don't get me wrong I'm not against 380 acp. You just have to know it's limitations. Sometimes I carry a 32 acp. Now that's a REAL mouse gun. But I'm shooting +P 75 grain hardcast lead flat nose in it. It's supposed to be able to penetrate 20". I hope I never have to test it.

You agreed with me in public Buddy? Man that's bad.

Dave

 

[buddy_fuentes]

You agreed with me in public Buddy? Man that's bad.

Dave

I'm ashamed...I've been tainted!