Pistol brace ruling

[WilsonCombatant]

I hope this time it sticks. I don't know how the average gun owner is supposed to keep up with all this mess.

I wish this was the case but some yt gun guys are saying atf is working on an appeal already

 

[thperez1972]

Have the courts thrown out the brace rule?

Yea the injunction is permanent for everyone now. All stores are selling with braces again. Even online.

Yup

It's not possible for both A) the injunction to be in place and B) the court to have thrown out the rule. The injunction stops the rule from being enforced while the case is decided in the courts but the injunction does not throw out the rule. Once a decision is made, the injunction goes away.

The site is not saying you cannot sell a braced pistol. The site does not (nor should they) monitor your private sales. You just can't list it here. Until the rule is actually thrown out or until the owner says otherwise, braced pistols will be viewed as NFA items for the purposes of the listing. While the transfer of NFA items are legal, they come with more restrictions than a non-nfa transfer.

 

[thperez1972]

I wish this was the case but some yt gun guys are saying atf is working on an appeal already

They will likely appeal almost every loss.

 

[swampfoxx]

I went to Nick's a couple of weeks ago. When I pulled out my unbraced AR-15 pistol, they told me that I couldn't shoot it without a brace. Then, they loaned me a brace to use while I was shooting it

 

[krotsman]

Until the rule is actually thrown out or until the owner says otherwise, braced pistols will be viewed as NFA items for the purposes of the listing. While the transfer of NFA items are legal, they come with more restrictions than a non-nfa transfer.

I don't care one way or the other, but are NFA items prohibited from being listed on this site? I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've seen supressors and full auto weapons for sale here.

 

[70mikenike70]

It's not possible for both A) the injunction to be in place and B) the court to have thrown out the rule. The injunction stops the rule from being enforced while the case is decided in the courts but the injunction does not throw out the rule. Once a decision is made, the injunction goes away.

The site is not saying you cannot sell a braced pistol. The site does not (nor should they) monitor your private sales. You just can't list it here. Until the rule is actually thrown out or until the owner says otherwise, braced pistols will be viewed as NFA items for the purposes of the listing. While the transfer of NFA items are legal, they come with more restrictions than a non-nfa transfer.

Wait wait wait….. You can’t lawfully tell us what the ATF tried to make a law that is unlawful and unconstitutional that it is now an NFA item that was never an NFA item from the beginning. There is no written law that places a piece of plastic on the NFA item list. There was no congressional voting done on this. How or even why would a pro 2A gun listing/selling/trading website have the authority to tell us what we can or can’t list? I absolutely believe in following the law because I don’t want to go to jail, but posting a lawfully approved AR/AK pistol for sale or trade will not land anyone in jail. It also does not put the website owner at any risk of wrongdoing. I’m glad someone has the time and energy to make and maintain this site, but as long as we are following the law the owner will never have to worry about getting into any trouble. The law says I can’t have a rocket launcher right? I wouldn’t be dumb enough to acquire one much less list it on here. As a rocket launcher by law is illegal. There is no real pistol brace “Law”, so therefore it’s not illegal…. Am I making any sense? I guess I’m just tired of people trying to cut our God given rights off just to appease other gov officials…. So what is your opinion on this? I’m by no means trying to disrespect you or the site owner, but we do have the 1st amendment that gives us the right to defend and talk about the 2nd amendment.

 

[thperez1972]

I don't care one way or the other, but are NFA items prohibited from being listed on this site? I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've seen supressors and full auto weapons for sale here.

As long as they are marked as NFA items, you should be good to go.

 

[krotsman]

As long as they are marked as NFA items, you should be good to go.

Ah, ok, so "the site" sees the liability as selling a non-marked "NFA" item? The site is looking at it like Schrodinger's cat. It is both an NFA and a non-NFA item, at the same time...

 

[340six]

Wait wait wait….. You can’t lawfully tell us what the ATF tried to make a law that is unlawful and unconstitutional that it is now an NFA item that was never an NFA item from the beginning. There is no written law that places a piece of plastic on the NFA item list. There was no congressional voting done on this. How or even why would a pro 2A gun listing/selling/trading website have the authority to tell us what we can or can’t list? I absolutely believe in following the law because I don’t want to go to jail, but posting a lawfully approved AR/AK pistol for sale or trade will not land anyone in jail. It also does not put the website owner at any risk of wrongdoing. I’m glad someone has the time and energy to make and maintain this site, but as long as we are following the law the owner will never have to worry about getting into any trouble. The law says I can’t have a rocket launcher right? I wouldn’t be dumb enough to acquire one much less list it on here. As a rocket launcher by law is illegal. There is no real pistol brace “Law”, so therefore it’s not illegal…. Am I making any sense? I guess I’m just tired of people trying to cut our God given rights off just to appease other gov officials…. So what is your opinion on this? I’m by no means trying to disrespect you or the site owner, but we do have the 1st amendment that gives us the right to defend and talk about the 2nd amendment.

Privately owned site. That you agreed to the rules of. Right now rules are no braced pistols.
Pretty simple.

 

[Bigchillin83]

I went to Nick's a couple of weeks ago. When I pulled out my unbraced AR-15 pistol, they told me that I couldn't shoot it without a brace. Then, they loaned me a brace to use while I was shooting it

That ain’t gonna happen on this site

 

[thperez1972]

Wait wait wait….. You can’t lawfully tell us what the ATF tried to make a law that is unlawful and unconstitutional that it is now an NFA item that was never an NFA item from the beginning. There is no written law that places a piece of plastic on the NFA item list. There was no congressional voting done on this. How or even why would a pro 2A gun listing/selling/trading website have the authority to tell us what we can or can’t list? I absolutely believe in following the law because I don’t want to go to jail, but posting a lawfully approved AR/AK pistol for sale or trade will not land anyone in jail. It also does not put the website owner at any risk of wrongdoing. I’m glad someone has the time and energy to make and maintain this site, but as long as we are following the law the owner will never have to worry about getting into any trouble. The law says I can’t have a rocket launcher right? I wouldn’t be dumb enough to acquire one much less list it on here. As a rocket launcher by law is illegal. There is no real pistol brace “Law”, so therefore it’s not illegal…. Am I making any sense? I guess I’m just tired of people trying to cut our God given rights off just to appease other gov officials…. So what is your opinion on this? I’m by no means trying to disrespect you or the site owner, but we do have the 1st amendment that gives us the right to defend and talk about the 2nd amendment.

I don't agree with the ruling. I believe the ATF overstepped their authority when they created the rule that reclassified certain configurations as NFA items. But they did create that rule. And the rule has not been rescinded or ruled unconstitutional. It's not the piece of plastic that is on the list. It's the configuration.

You're making sense but you are still wrong. Right now, the ATF considers a braced ar pistol to be an SBR. They have a rule in place, right now, indicating that is their interpretation of the law. So, according to the ATF, a braced pistol is an NFA item. That interpretation is being challenged in court. As part of the court proceedings, an injunction has been granted. That injunction does not change the rule. That injunction does not change the ATF's interpretation of the braced ar pistol as an sbr. The injunction only says the ATF cannot enforce the existing rule.

I believe a rocket launcher is legal to own but requires a tax stamp. If it works like a grenade launcher, each rocket would be a destructive device and each would need its own tax stamp. But I understand what you are saying.

You do have a 1st and 2nd amendment right. But those are not relevant here on a private forum. Personally, I welcome people discussing opposing viewpoints as long as it's done civilly. If it gets out of hand, I will close the thread but leave the conversation. On occasion, I will delete some posts. But those are how the site elects to run things. You do not have any 1st amendment rights here. I could ban you and you would have no legal recourse. The 1st amendment applies to government restricting free speech, not private entities. That's how the 2A gun listing/selling/trading website has the authority to tell you what you can or can’t list. The site isn't telling you what you can or can't own or transfer. It's just restricting what you can or can't list in the site's marketplace.

 

[thperez1972]

Ah, ok, so "the site" sees the liability as selling a non-marked "NFA" item? The site is looking at it like Schrodinger's cat. It is both an NFA and a non-NFA item, at the same time...

Sorta. As of right now, braced ar pistols are viewed by the atf as nfa items. They just can't enforce that right now. It's legal to transfer nfa items. The site does not want to appear to be facilitating illegal transfers.

 

[Bigchillin83]

so as far as this site goes...

i can legally sell a pistol with an IWB concealment holster in the same pic to a person even though they may or may not have a CHP... and bayou shooter is good in legal standings...

but i cannot sell a pistol on this site with a brace in the pic not even attached????? Or else the atf will shut this site down

whats funny is in the past i have seen and personally sold 4 braced pistols that came with an "sbr kit" not installed but stock ect. came with it and was legally able to sell that togeather in a package.... but in 2023, dont put a dirty pic of a brace in there... dont even mention it

 

[thperez1972]

so as far as this site goes...

i can legally sell a pistol with an IWB concealment holster in the same pic to a person even though they may or may not have a CHP... and bayou shooter is good in legal standings...

but i cannot sell a pistol on this site with a brace in the pic not even attached????? Or else the atf will shut this site down

whats funny is in the past i have seen and personally sold 4 braced pistols that came with an "sbr kit" not installed but stock ect. came with it and was legally able to sell that togeather in a package.... but in 2023, dont put a dirty pic of a brace in there... dont even mention it

A cz scorpion sbr kit is the only sbr kit I was able to find that you listed on here. And it looks to be parts rather than an actual weapon.

Yes, you can sell a iwb holster with a pistol. Putting pistol in an iwb holster and placing the two on a table does not equal concealed carry. But, according to the atf, putting a brace on an ar pistol does equal an sbr. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand. It's really simple. Until the owner decides otherwise or until braced pistols are no longer viewed by the atf as sbr's, the site's policy is going to stay how it is.

Is there anything I posted regarding rules or injunctions or any of the court stuff that you feel was factually incorrect? I'm not asking if you agree with it or not. I'm asking if any of it is factually incorrect.

 

[Jstudz220]

I hope this time it sticks. I don't know how the average gun owner is supposed to keep up with all this mess.

Seriously though. Just imagine the guy who has bought a gun or two along his life and goes to the gun range for fun maybe once every other year. He just so happens to buy an AR pistol somewhere along the way. How does that guy even hear about stuff like this. If you’re not actively involved in the gun scene and some sort of firearm’s hobbiest you’d really have no clue what’s going on.

Most guys on this forum are firearm enthusiasts of some sort and actively engage and seek information. Other than that crowd the rest of America is clueless. I’ve witnessed a politician show pictures of pistol braces describing it to being a bump stock that turnes the weapon into a fully automatic gun. These are supposed to be educated people….

 

[hkump]

Seriously though. Just imagine the guy who has bought a gun or two along his life and goes to the gun range for fun maybe once every other year. He just so happens to buy an AR pistol somewhere along the way. How does that guy even hear about stuff like this. If you’re not actively involved in the gun scene and some sort of firearm’s hobbiest you’d really have no clue what’s going on.

Most guys on this forum are firearm enthusiasts of some sort and actively engage and seek information. Other than that crowd the rest of America is clueless. I’ve witnessed a politician show pictures of pistol braces describing it to being a bump stock that turnes the weapon into a fully automatic gun. These are supposed to be educated people….

1000% accurate. Most people that own guns don't look at ATF rules daily and would be in that exact predicament. I'd say over 99% of gun owners are good down to earth people and for ATF to do stupid crap to good citizens is a travesty.

 

[DBMJR1]

What does Chevron and Commercial Fishing have to do with it all ?







Everything.
Pay Attention

 

[AustinBR]

I've been given the responsibility (burden) of making decisions on behalf of the site and I guess it ultimately comes down to my judgement.

If braces were super difficult to add or remove from a firearm, I might lean more towards letting them stay in ads, but frankly it's just not that difficult to take the brace off and sell them separately.

A brace adds minimal to no value to a sale. It's just like adding a shitty optic. Both can be had for cheap and removed or added at the owners discretion.

Until the ATF rule is permanently revoked, I just don't see any reason for us to flip-flop on our decision. If someone wants to buy your AR pistol, the presence, or lack thereof, of a brace likely won't sway their decision. Yes, freedom, yes "muh rights," and also "don't step on snek," but our moderators (self included) don't get paid for this volunteer job. Constantly changing the rules we ask them to enforce is no fun.

TLDR: Still no braces, please take 25 seconds and remove them before posting and if you feel so inclined to sell the brace (separately, you can do so).

 

[GunRelated]

It's not possible for both A) the injunction to be in place and B) the court to have thrown out the rule. The injunction stops the rule from being enforced while the case is decided in the courts but the injunction does not throw out the rule. Once a decision is made, the injunction goes away.

The site is not saying you cannot sell a braced pistol. The site does not (nor should they) monitor your private sales. You just can't list it here. Until the rule is actually thrown out or until the owner says otherwise, braced pistols will be viewed as NFA items for the purposes of the listing. While the transfer of NFA items are legal, they come with more restrictions than a non-nfa transfer.

There you have it. All you have to do is list the braced item as NFA and you got yourself a legal BayouShooter listing.
I take thank you donations in the form of just about anything.

---looks like I was late to the show and got beat to the punch.

 

[70mikenike70]

I don't agree with the ruling. I believe the ATF overstepped their authority when they created the rule that reclassified certain configurations as NFA items. But they did create that rule. And the rule has not been rescinded or ruled unconstitutional. It's not the piece of plastic that is on the list. It's the configuration.

You're making sense but you are still wrong. Right now, the ATF considers a braced ar pistol to be an SBR. They have a rule in place, right now, indicating that is their interpretation of the law. So, according to the ATF, a braced pistol is an NFA item. That interpretation is being challenged in court. As part of the court proceedings, an injunction has been granted. That injunction does not change the rule. That injunction does not change the ATF's interpretation of the braced ar pistol as an sbr. The injunction only says the ATF cannot enforce the existing rule.

I believe a rocket launcher is legal to own but requires a tax stamp. If it works like a grenade launcher, each rocket would be a destructive device and each would need its own tax stamp. But I understand what you are saying.

You do have a 1st and 2nd amendment right. But those are not relevant here on a private forum. Personally, I welcome people discussing opposing viewpoints as long as it's done civilly. If it gets out of hand, I will close the thread but leave the conversation. On occasion, I will delete some posts. But those are how the site elects to run things. You do not have any 1st amendment rights here. I could ban you and you would have no legal recourse. The 1st amendment applies to government restricting free speech, not private entities. That's how the 2A gun listing/selling/trading website has the authority to tell you what you can or can’t list. The site isn't telling you what you can or can't own or transfer. It's just restricting what you can or can't list in the site's marketplace.

Thank you for responding! You make very good points, but finally we are getting to where we can discuss this craziness that they are unlawfully trying to bring down on us without everyone getting upset and violent. So what I’m gathering is that y’all have a privately owned website where you can make all the rules that you can possibly think of to cover your anus and nobody has a legal leg to stand on…. I like that! It proves part of my point. If you can make rules that nobody even the gov can’t stop you from making, why in the world would we make a rule that is not lawful just to appease the fed dummies who don’t care about our rights? I say we because I feel like if you are a member of this site we are a team/family member of gun rights. Why wouldn’t you make the site rule that braces are legal on or off the gun? The “rule” from the ATF is not a “Law” it was not voted on by congress. It was not placed into a congressional vote to be deemed an actual Law. The way the ATF is going they could just start making rules on rules on rules and they can do that all day but it isn’t legal unless they get a congressional vote. So……?