Shooting competition for Defensive Training

[enutees]

The CZ Gods just took aim with their super-accurate lightning bolts.

Even if you're talking about real world applications.

Stay off my platform!

Don't worry you won't see me with one anytime soon.

I would love to find a reasonably priced CZ slide to put one on as well. Or maybe a different gun to put it on. I had already tried the cmore sts (too small) and the deltapoint (hate the triangle and the dot available is too small) and the Trijicon seems to get it right.

 

[goteron]

From Sin-ster's appraisal of your abilities it seems like you spend a lot of time practicing in your own methods.

6 stages, less than 3 minutes of shooting, less than 200 rds, once or twice a month.

Bad habits come from doing it over and over again repeatedly. If your training regiment far exceeds the 2 minutes and less than 200 rds a match expends than why even worry about it? Its just a mental exercise and a good way to have fun with friends.

Sin-Ster has greatly inflated my abilities. But bad habits are bad habits. I will still go and shoot the match when I can, but there is no reason to sacrifice training time. Its not only practicing the bad habit once, its missing a chance to practice the "good" habit once as well.

Whit, I have a 9 Pro setup exactly the same, I was thinking about milling a compensator for it before the next match and shooting it on a stage just to see the difference. I need one of those space holsters though.



I do need to film my runs for self critique, and will be doing that next time. I would like to try a pair of the PivotHead glasses, but I think the motion will be too shaky for practical use.

Someone told me the exact same thing about my gun being frowned upon in IDPA? Whats the deal with that?

 

[scooterj]

Someone told me the exact same thing about my gun being frowned upon in IDPA? Whats the deal with that?

The deal is Bill Wilson. He makes the rules. If he doesn't make the goodies for your gun, it can't be used. He's been a prick for a long, long time.

 

[sraacke]

Marty Hayes had a good article on competition and training for self defense in the January issue of the Armed Citizen Legal Network journal. I found it very interesting. You can read it at http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/our-journal/252-january-2012
Some snippets....

When he was a member of the NYPD Stake Out Unit, Cirillo was adamant that he wanted other competition shooters backing him up on the felony stake outs. He wrote in his book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights that he would ask potential recruits for the Stake Out Unit twelve questions. The first three were: “Are you a competitive shooter?” “Have you competed in major matches and placed and won awards?” “Can you perform well under pressure or fear?”

Other issues center around equipment used in competition, and how it differs from equipment used in self defense. The most logical approach is to simply choose a good self-defense handgun and holster, one that is perfectly suitable for everyday carry, and start using that in competition.

If you use a firearm for self defense, you face two legal challenges: a criminal one and a civil one. Remember the reasonable man doctrine? In either a criminal or civil trial the jury will be scrutinizing you and your credibility, measuring your actions against the standard of a reasonable and prudent person. Will the perception that you spend your Saturday afternoons with a gun in your hand, practicing how to kill people, and in fact seem to enjoy the endeavor, come up in your trial and have a negative effect on the jury? Remember who will likely be the jury.

On the stand, along with explaining for the jury the reasons why I felt it necessary to use deadly force to protect myself or others, I would be ready to explain that I participate in these competitions in order to be best able to fulfill my responsibilities to myself and others I would be protecting, along with society in general. That means being the best, most competent armed citizen I can be. I would explain how many, many years ago, I decided to make sure that if I was ever forced to use deadly force in defense of myself or others, I wanted to be as skilled as possible, to minimize any risk to the general public. That’s why I compete and will continue to compete as long as I carry a gun.

 

[Sin-ster]

Don't worry you won't see me with one anytime soon.

A long time ago, I had a "great" idea about proposing that some of us switch guns for a "fun match" day. I had a great plan of weaseling your CZ-- "I used to shoot a Glock and shoot an M&P now-- the CZ's the only thing out there that's 'different'!"

Now I wanna do it with someone who shoots open.

Marty Hayes had a good article on competition and training for self defense in the January issue of the Armed Citizen Legal Network journal. I found it very interesting. You can read it at http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/our-journal/252-january-2012
Some snippets....

That last quote is pretty darn awesome. I'd also add to it that we shoot a lot of steel, and while one may argue that a popper has a "man-like" shape, the plates absolutely do not.

I'd also be sure to bring my attorney some Classic targets. The turtle shell is about as far from a human form as one could imagine-- and we shoot at them a LOT these days. (I know and remember because I hate the bastards.)

TBH, I'd be lucky if they focused on the competition shooting in my prosecution. I absolutely, 100% consider it a game-- which is nice as it relates to this thread. I feel confident in my ability to plead that case on my own, much less with a skilled attorney doing all of the talking.

I know Mas has said that no one has ever been convicted because they were trained, but that's the type of BS I can see a... shall we say "liberal jury"... using against someone.

 

[Sin-ster]

Someone told me the exact same thing about my gun being frowned upon in IDPA? Whats the deal with that?

Aside from your RDS, the weapon light would also place you in Open Division. As the predominant platforms are 2011's, it's pretty much a non-issue.

In Production, where railed guns are most prevalent, there are weight restrictions "over stock" in place, plus a box that the guns must fit inside. Some would make it, some would not-- it turns into an equipment race between the guns that fit AND the lights that come in super-light, and that's what the Division was created to avoid. Why they're barred in Limited and L10, I could begin to guess...

Now... How a WML is an advantage, I don't know. I suppose my 45 FS does feel a bit better balanced with one, but I doubt the recoil is managed any easier for it... As you well know, the X300 DOES stick out past the muzzle some-- I'd say if anything, adding length (less maneuverable) without extra barrel length or side radius seems more like a disadvantage to me...

What's REALLY messed up, and more to the point of your question, is that IDPA has outlawed them *entirely*. This is from the actual Rule Book:

While IDPA realizes that lights mounted on guns are very useful for self-defense, we would have the same situation with mounted lights that we do with ported pistols if they were allowed. Mounted lights would become another “necessary modification” to be competitive and that is not the purpose of IDPA. Also, the mounting of weapons lights under the stress of competition imposes a dangerous safety hazard.

I could not make that up if I tried... Because actual lethal force encounters aren't nearly as stressful or dangerous as competition, right?

Fortunately, our local match in Amite is "outlaw"; I was permitted to run my gun with the light. You could do the same, if you so chose-- although there's capacity restrictions in that game as well.

That said-- I enjoy shooting IDPA, but mostly because I see it as a different type of *game*. Frankly, I think the utter LACK of dynamics and freestyle problem solving make it less useful as a training/practice format than USPSA-- and believe that touting it as "simulated combat" borders on being dangerous misrepresentation.

There's a reason why dedicated/accomplished USPSA shooters win at those matches (including at the National Championships), even if they don't practice the specific techniques or even the following of the odd-ball rules very often (if at all). I dropped a loaded mag once, on the first stage, out of sheer habit; in Production, if I'm moving and not shooting, I'm reloading in the process. After that, no issues-- order of engagement, staying behind "cover", etc. just translated into stage breakdown and planning; I spent more time staging my reloads and didn't even have the urge to toss a full mag in the dirt again!

 

[Hammar]

Now I wanna do it with someone who shoots open.

The lure of the dark side is strong. I'd lend you one of my open guns to shoot one match, but I'd be afraid you'd like it to much and switch from production to open.

 

[Sin-ster]

The lure of the dark side is strong. I'd lend you one of my open guns to shoot one match, but I'd be afraid you'd like it to much and switch from production to open.

You flatter!

It looks like LOADS of fun, and at present, it's the only Division other than Production that interests me. I swore I'd get a GM card first, though... Maybe I'll settle for Master...

At any rate, I'll have to decide early; those damned guns take forever to build it would seem. I suppose I'd pick up something else to eventually use as a back-up, and run it while I waited. That makes sense, right?

But yeah-- I wanna try it. I mean, if Whit's any good... how hard can it be?

 

[enutees]

You flatter!

It looks like LOADS of fun, and at present, it's the only Division other than Production that interests me. I swore I'd get a GM card first, though... Maybe I'll settle for Master... I said the same thing about making Master first. My last production classifier was a 100% and I still switched.

But yeah-- I wanna try it. I mean, if Whit's any good... how hard can it be?

Bring it.

 

[Sin-ster]

Bring it.

I remember that Classifier run-- it was awesome!

Maybe next season... It just looks like too much fun! Without mag changes and the basically impossible scenario of not seeing the sights/POA, I feel like I might be decent at it, haha.

 

[Jesse Tischauser]

Everyone knows this competition shooting stuff will get you killed on the street! I mean that's why the old saying is the quick and the dead right? Oh wait it should be the guy who used the most concealment and the dead. Or the guy who retained a mag with one round left and the dead.

Competition Shooting is good for increasing your gun manipulation skills and speed. If you think you're going to have trouble finding and using cover in an actually gun fight your more of a man than I am. Im gonna be hauling ass and shooting on the way outta there. After seeing my fellow competitors shoot swingers and bobbers I'm simply gonna run away swaying from side to side bobbing up and down cause nobody can hit that at least not in the A zone. Furthermore I'm not really convinced I need to practice the search and assess after each stage. Im gonna go out in a limb and say that if someone or especially if multiple persons are Shooting at me I'm not going to need to revert to my training to remind me to look around for other bad guys. That should be a pretty natural instinct when threatened.

I'm glad you found Competitve shooting. I know when I did it finally gave me a reason to practice and train so I am inherently better suited for self defense because I now know how my guns work with my eyes closed. I hope you enjoy the sport. Be sure to check out some 3 gun. It's 3 times the fun!!!

 

[scooterj]

Good post Jesse. I agree on all accounts.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Everyone knows this competition shooting stuff will get you killed on the street! I mean that's why the old saying is the quick and the dead right? Oh wait it should be the guy who used the most concealment and the dead. Or the guy who retained a mag with one round left and the dead.

Competition Shooting is good for increasing your gun manipulation skills and speed. If you think you're going to have trouble finding and using cover in an actually gun fight your more of a man than I am. Im gonna be hauling ass and shooting on the way outta there. After seeing my fellow competitors shoot swingers and bobbers I'm simply gonna run away swaying from side to side bobbing up and down cause nobody can hit that at least not in the A zone. Furthermore I'm not really convinced I need to practice the search and assess after each stage. Im gonna go out in a limb and say that if someone or especially if multiple persons are Shooting at me I'm not going to need to revert to my training to remind me to look around for other bad guys. That should be a pretty natural instinct when threatened.

I'm glad you found Competitve shooting. I know when I did it finally gave me a reason to practice and train so I am inherently better suited for self defense because I now know how my guns work with my eyes closed. I hope you enjoy the sport. Be sure to check out some 3 gun. It's 3 times the fun!!!

I couldn't disagree with this more. No Human Being I ever met was an instinctual gunfighter. We haven't been doing it look enough or often enough to evolve to do it without thinking. The first time I was in a fire fight I froze in the middle of a danger area and it it was only by Grace and the actions of a switched on Squad Leader that I found my way to cover and began to return fire. Nobody in any gunfight I have ever been in rose to the occassion and excelled. 100% of the time they defaulted to their training. Good habits or scars its what they went to. I could cite historical examples ad nasueam. IF you skip the scan and assess in training you will assuredly skip it in the fight. Ecspecially considering one of the autonomic reactions to stress is hyper focus aka tunnel vision.

I have, because of the nature of the GWOT shot it out with a great deal of motivated but poorly trained individuals. They all behaved roughly the same way and none of it looked like instinctual gunfighting. Instead most looked like startled prey. It's just a cold hard truth I'm afraid. I think competition can be valuable. I incorporate competion elements into my training, but, don't kid yourself it isn't the same as training and in fact if your not careful you can develop some fatal training scars. For instance; not reloading before you leave cover, not transitioninge on an empty long gun, score your targets in-gunfight, and listening for the ping of hits on steel. Competiton Shooting can help develop and enhance Combat Shooting in the same way I believe all Warriors should participate in Combat Sports like Lacrosse and Martial Arts but it wont ,make you a better warrior anymore than a olored JuJitsu Belt will.

 

[dmh]

Remember this, even if you win you haven't won much. You spent more on gas, food, and ammo then you can ever get back. It's even worse at big matches we travel too. It's for fun and a break from reality. However, remember that even a C class production guy usually gets more gun handling than the average LEO. Not being ugly, it's just based on qual time vs match experience. Who has a better chance surfing a ship sinking, an Olympic swimmer or the guy who swims twice a year? Anything can happen, but chance favors the prepared.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Sure it does but don't over estimate your level of preperation and create a false sense of security because you Gun Game.

 

[dmh]

I like to think I never would, I carry, stay alert and avoid confrontation. Look at the top IDPA guys, I bet their USPSA guys. They may not be the most tactical, but facing them in a shoot out would not end well.

 

[goteron]

Not to mention, other than the address stress of on-lookers, its probably a poor use of training time. I allocated 5 hours to the event and shot for 90 ish seconds. Spending 5 hours on the local range is probably much more profitable.

I will still be going to the matches, but I agree with VG about the training scars. If I find myself sacrificing those things for speed, Ill need to re-asses.

Not to mention, if I am with my family, I won't have the luxury of retreating. It will probably be the opposite, closing the distance or drawing fire away. Its a worst case scenario for me.

Not to mention, I didnt see many carry guns / holsters / clothes, etc there.

Also, I don't think its the competition that helps as much as the practice. I know a lot of guys do thousands of presentations, dry firing, reloads, etc to get ready for match day. So the training / competing ratio is probably 100:1.

Extreme stress does crazy things to people. Post - stress interviews about the event are usually worthless. Stress innoculated individuals fare much better.

Im a nobody, but thats my opinion.

 

[Hunh Bruh]

Cops go careers and never shoot. But deal with high stress daily. They learn to effectively respond to the high stress and reduce the effects of tunnel vision and many tell stories that they could have shot, but did not

 

[Tulse Luper]

Not to mention, other than the address stress of on-lookers, its probably a poor use of training time. I allocated 5 hours to the event and shot for 90 ish seconds. Spending 5 hours on the local range is probably much more profitable.

And without a private range you will be standing in one spot, shooting at a singe target with no stress (even if it is just onlookers and a timer). City folks don't have a chance to shoot while moving any other place that I know of, with more frequency, for under $20. I shoot at two different ranges. Running from stall to stall at either would draw some serious, negative attention.

I agree with all of your points 1-8 and will add most are not drawing from concealment, but the rare chance to shoot while moving makes the list moot for me.

The beauty of gun games and formal training is most neophytes will realize just how much they suck at gun handling. The smart ones then seek out the answers for themselves. The guy who thought he would never spend $400 and up + gear + ammo + time for a formal class might change his mind after shooting a match for $20.

 

[goteron]

I know not everyone has access to an outdoor range that allows those types of events, but that is not how I shoot.

With the new laser training technology coming out, I imagine the gap will close on available training.