The recent events surrounding the USPSA scandal

[BayouSlide]

Showing the timer to the scorekeeper is just something some ROs choose to do and some don't, just to expedite recording the score, often while they are watching the Unload and Show Clear. I find it a little awkward, when the scorekeeper, to have to lean in to try to see the timer through polarized shooting glasses but if the RO works that way, I'll roll with it.

Myself, I don't want that additional distraction if I'm running a shooter. I call out the time and expect to hear it repeated back because it makes sure the scorekeeper heard the score correctly before we move on. I personally don't think it's necessary as a competitor for me to see the timer but I certainly won't mind doing it for others. HOWEVER this should not be a distraction until after Range is Clear…let's not lose our safety focus and risk getting someone hurt just because it appears that one out of many hundreds or thousands of ROs may have betrayed our trust. I'm still shocked that something like this could happen…mistakes once in a while, perhaps, but conscious cheating…by an RO?? If this is true I feel betrayed, saddened and disheartened: I guess I'm just wired in a way that makes such dishonesty inconceivable to me.

I can't tell you how many times in how many matches, major or otherwise, I've seen a shooter call or confirm a miss or a procedural on themselves (as have I), just to make sure the RO scored us fairly. I guess that sort of sportsmanship is what I've come to expect of the kind of people who shoot USPSA.

 

[Emperor]

Showing the timer to the scorekeeper is just something some ROs choose to do and some don't, just to expedite recording the score, often while they are watching the Unload and Show Clear. I find it a little awkward, when the scorekeeper, to have to lean in to try to see the timer through polarized shooting glasses but if the RO works that way, I'll roll with it.

Myself, I don't want that additional distraction if I'm running a shooter. I call out the time and expect to hear it repeated back because it makes sure the scorekeeper heard the score correctly before we move on. I personally don't think it's necessary to show the competitor the timer but I certainly won't mind doing it, HOWEVER this should not be a distraction until after Range is Clear…let's not lose our safety focus and risk getting someone hurt just because it appears that one out of many hundreds or thousands of ROs may have betrayed our trust. I'm still shocked that something like this could happen…mistakes once in a while, perhaps, but conscious cheating…by an RO??…if true I feel betrayed, saddened and disheartened that something like this could happen, but I guess I'm just wired in a way that makes such dishonesty inconceivable to me.

I can't tell you how many times in how many matches, major or otherwise, I've seen a shooter call a miss or a procedural on themselves (as have I) , just to make sure the RO scored us fairly. I guess that sort of sportsmanship is what I've come to expect of the kind of people who shoot USPSA.

Bragging rights or dick measuring between guys that tease each other is one thing. This appears to be intentional cheating for cash/prizes with malicious intent. That is a crime here in Louisiana; and should be, where these occurrences took place.

But don't be jaded! No one/sport/government is immune from douche baggery.

 

[dwr461]

I don't honestly know of any local people that would do this. But I do believe that all RO's should go the extra mile now to show the timer to either the shooter or the score keeper. The reason? It's the professional thing to do and it would reassure all those newer people to the sport.

Dave


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[BayouSlide]

Unfortunately, an NROI review of allegations such as this will take some time, even if the matter seems cut and dry based the facts we've read.

For more details, see the following NROI document on disciplining ROs: http://www.uspsa.org/downloads/RO Discipline Procedure.pdf.

This would seem to justify the Tier 2 complaint level. After a thorough investigation of both sides of such an incident, various levels of discipline are detailed, with expulsion from the organization the most severe.

Not a question of being jaded, just justifiable sorrow that a job that had considerable honor and purpose to me may have been besmirched through dishonesty of one individual, reducing the trust we have earned through living up the principles of a level playing field.

FWIW, I've had the privilege of dealing with a number of top people in the NROI, some as mentors, others as Range Masters…I have no doubt they will deal with this appropriately and fairly.

 

[mahamoti]

I really believe this is the action of one group of guys and in no way reflects any sort of local matches. As someone who runs the timer and keeps score, I usually let the scorekeeper visibly check the timer while I go through the unload and show clear commands. And they typically call it back to me after scoring to make sure we're on the same page.

I trust the local guys. I don't go look at my mikes (there's nothing to see) at local matches or go argue for points. If anyone wants to screw me over to beat me go for it.

And surprise chronos are all fine and dandy but make sure we can do it without making a hot summer day longer than it already is.

All of this.

I've found timer discrepancies going through my match video before, but never anything deliberate, and it's been obvious what happened (oh, timer bumped the door, that's where the added time came from).

While all of the info coming out about this individual's ROing certainly seems damning, no one has a clear motive yet. What did this guy gain from this? I haven't seen a vid yet of one of *his* runs where a buddy ROing returns the favor. I haven't seen definitive listings of what one of his buddies has won when he shouldn't have. It all just seems so random, or generally malicious for no reason.

 

[BayouSlide]

For everyone interested in this, as mentioned on the Brian Enos forum, Area 1 Director Chuck Anderson has been put in charge of investigating this and is calling for anyone with evidence to come forward and submit it.

 

[Barry J]

Why should we have to change the way we do things locally because some douche cheated hundreds of miles away? It's worked fine for the four or five years I have been shooting.

 

[scooterj]

Why should we have to change the way we do things locally because some douche cheated hundreds of miles away? It's worked fine for the four or five years I have been shooting.

There has been "cheating" locally and it has been being done from the beginning. Nothing near what we see here, but it happens. "I" will not call anyone out on any open forum. Others may do as they please. I do, on the other hand, try to correct these "accidents" when I see them occur.

 

[oppsImissed]

scooterj, cheating at Amite? Id be shocked. They are all great people and help me more than I could have imagined.

 

[JayDubU]

There has been "cheating" locally and it has been being done from the beginning. Nothing near what we see here, but it happens. "I" will not call anyone out on any open forum. Others may do as they please. I do, on the other hand, try to correct these "accidents" when I see them occur.

What sort of "accidents"? By all means, please let us know...in hopes of us being better at recognizing these "accidents" and hopefully correcting them as needed. No names needed.

 

[jwglock]

All of this.

I've found timer discrepancies going through my match video before, but never anything deliberate, and it's been obvious what happened (oh, timer bumped the door, that's where the added time came from).

While all of the info coming out about this individual's ROing certainly seems damning, no one has a clear motive yet. What did this guy gain from this? I haven't seen a vid yet of one of *his* runs where a buddy ROing returns the favor. I haven't seen definitive listings of what one of his buddies has won when he shouldn't have. It all just seems so random, or generally malicious for no reason.

He don't video his runs so we don't know if someone was returning the favor. It has been said by people who shoot with these two locally that his buddy (who benefitted the most) almost always runs the timer when he shoots at local matches.

Rob Jessee won limited 10 (by 2.5%) at the 2013 Area 8 Championship. The video suggest that he received about 19.5 seconds worth of favors in this match alone. I think it's fair to say he didn't deserve that title.

As for how he benefitted I believe (like others) that it was a case of wanting the local guys to do better at majors.


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[jwglock]

There has been "cheating" locally and it has been being done from the beginning. Nothing near what we see here, but it happens. "I" will not call anyone out on any open forum. Others may do as they please. I do, on the other hand, try to correct these "accidents" when I see them occur.

If someone is cheating locally they need to be exposed. If someone is having too many scoring "accidents" then we need to correct that as well.


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[bayougump]

If someone is cheating locally they need to be exposed. If someone is having too many scoring "accidents" then we need to correct that as well.


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I agree that if someone knows of or has proof of some form of cheating or foul play then they need to convey this to the right people. Also how will these incidents or "scoring accidents" get remedied if no one knows what's happening?


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[scooterj]

I agree that if someone knows of or has proof of some form of cheating or foul play then they need to convey this to the right people. Also how will these incidents or "scoring accidents" get remedied if no one knows what's happening?


Sent from my flux capacitor

Therein lies the rub. I can't "prove" that the errant calls were not just that. When I have the score sheet/nook, I will always make the RO take another look at the timer or target to get the propper score. Most of the competitors don't want a gimmee or a screwing over. Give them what they earn and most everyone is happy.

 

[jwglock]

He don't video his runs so we don't know if someone was returning the favor. It has been said by people who shoot with these two locally that his buddy (who benefitted the most) almost always runs the timer when he shoots at local matches.

Rob Jessee won limited 10 (by 2.5%) at the 2013 Area 8 Championship. The video suggest that he received about 19.5 seconds worth of favors in this match alone. I think it's fair to say he didn't deserve that title.

As for how he benefitted I believe (like others) that it was a case of wanting the local guys to do better at majors.


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Also James go look at post #880 on doodie to see a comparison of how Scott Gaskins does at majors when Paul is there vs when Paul is not there. Quite a difference.


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[bayougump]

Also James go look at post #880 on doodie to see a comparison of how Scott Gaskins does at majors when Phil is there vs when Phil is not there. Quite a difference.


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Better yet see post #1003 and see how these numbers happen to calculate. I'm just saying


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[JayDubU]

Also James go look at post #880 on doodie to see a comparison of how Scott Gaskins does at majors when Phil is there vs when Phil is not there. Quite a difference.


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You mean "Paul"?? Certainly you ain't talking about Phil....Strader?

 

[jwglock]

You mean "Paul"?? Certainly you ain't talking about Phil....Strader?

Yes, Paul.


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[Emperor]

I have never read these details, but what is the scoring rule on whether or not a hit is a Delta or a Miss if the majority of the hit was on the outside of the perforated lines? Because I have witnessed the scorers giving those a Delta to the shooter before.

 

[scooterj]

I have never read these details, but what is the scoring rule on whether or not a hit is a Delta or a Miss if the majority of the hit was on the outside of the perforated lines? Because I have witnessed the scorers giving those a Delta to the shooter before.

The bullet only needs to touch the scoring border. Does not have to break it or be completely inside it.