Anyone Familiar w/ the Snagmag

[MOTOR51]

A couple more things to consider...

When I was with PMO on Camp Lejeune, we did not train for knife use. Because it was not considered an acceptable secondary or less lethal weapon. Simply put, in military LE, cutting someone is bad and falls outside of justifiable force.

And during weapons retention training, we were taught, as mentioned by George, two hands are very obviously stronger than one.

This also puts the offside arm in a semi defensive posture, covering part of the chest and abdomen in the event of an incoming strike from an attacker, and makes it more readily possible to deliver a counter strike with an elbow or shove with the shoulder.

Versus leaving your front wide open, while trying to retain your most lethal weapon with only one hand? To retrieve a secondary weapon, which the use of I've never heard of being approved by any department? And that secondary (knife) being smaller and inherently trickier to grasp than a baton?

None of that makes sense to me. But hey, I'm no longer in law enforcement and haven't been for a while, and have never been in civilian law enforcement.

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

I'm only going to say that if someone is trying to disarm you then it's a deadly force encounter. You may use a knife in a deadly force encounter.

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

I'm only going to say that if someone is trying to disarm you then it's a deadly force encounter. You may use a knife in a deadly force encounter.

If someone's trying to disarm you, it is NOT always a deadly force encounter. As a LEO you should have a duty to FIRST retain your weapon, and THEN deescalate the situation. They don't have your gun, YET. At least that's how I was trained, I dunno, maybe there really is something wrong with civilian cops, seems y'all want to brawl and bar fight.

What to do if you take a hand off your weapon to reach for your knife, and Mr. BG socks you in the gut and manages to get your weapon (because you've reduced your effectiveness of retention by 50% and left your front wide open at the same time)? What then?

But even still. None of that supports the one size fits all statement that one should always carry their knife on their off side, now does it?

Frankly, this is making my already lowered opinion of civilian police even more damaged. Sounds like some **** I'd hear from a thug or some high school bully who WISHES he had the balls to be a Ranger.

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

 

[US Infidel]

If someone's trying to disarm you, it is NOT always a deadly force encounter.

The F&@$ it's not!!! This went from a snag mag question to a cop bashing thread?? Geez.

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

The F&@$ it's not!!!

No idea what's civilian PDs are teaching their cops, but Marine Grunts (uh, the guys who are SUPPOSED to kill people? Remember them?) and Marine MPs are taught this thing called "escalation of force". TRYING to get an officer's gun doesn't warrant justification of deadly force UNTIL they get the gun.

Starting to sound like some folks just want a "justified" kill to me.

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

 

[US Infidel]

So wait until they have your gun?? Now that is just freaking stupid!!!!!

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

When the hell did I say that? Look at my posts, I've been advocating PREVENTING them from getting your gun.

I was trained to first, ANYTHING other than a simple traffic stop, have another patrolman on scene. Because, the longer some people deal with LE, the more nervous or irate they may be. When a call goes over the radio that a stop has taken place, or a call has come in and a patrolman is on scene, a back up should be on scene in five minutes or less. Now, that's probably easier to do on a military base than in some city like New Orleans.

In regards to a suspect trying to disarm us, we were trained to put ALL effort into retaining that weapon and moving away, fighting for openings at the same time to counter. We also carried our batons on the same side as our weapons for this reason. Both hands already right there on or near our most effective weapons. And we were trained to use that baton if we managed to retain our weapon. We were also taught that if the baton is taken, that's justification for deadly force too, because the MEB IS deadly itself.

I'm also a bit disgusted to begin with. I've seen a lot of this "big fish in a little pond" mentality.

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

 

[US Infidel]

TRYING to get an officer's gun doesn't warrant justification of deadly force UNTIL they get the gun.

Maybe I misunderstood this ^^^.

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Maybe I misunderstood this ^^^.

Well to make sure I'm clear! MY training was to first and foremost DO NOT LET THEM get the gun. My platoon sergeant actually specifically said "that weapon should never leave it's holster unless it's YOUR hand pulling it out."

We practiced. And we practiced. Ribs were broken, teeth were lost, concussions were given.

And those boys thought they had it rough during training. Ha. I carried a SAW in Iraq and Afghanistan, had a hajj try to take it. Imagine a twenty pound steel baseball bat...

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

 

[US Infidel]

So then lethal force would not be ruled out IF necessary to prevent them from getting any of your weapons right?

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Only if necessary. A knife was never authorized for anything other than cleaning fingernails and opening mail, except in the infantry. The baton is lethal enough, but also debilitating enough. It's what we were taught to use.

There's a couple of good reasons we were taught to use the baton instead of a knife, that came up when one of our instructors was explaining why they weren't authorized. Reach, for one. Two and a half feet versus 4 inches. And, gross versus fine motor skills. It's easier to grasp and flick out a baton under stress than it would be to dig out a knife and manipulate the blade. In our case, we were trained to use the baton instead of OC (as I mentioned, knives not being allowed), for this reason.

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

 

[US Infidel]

I think some carry fixed blade knives as a seatbelt removal tool if responding to an accident, or for other tasks such as opening a letter, but NOT as a weapon. But if you must improvise.....

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

I think some carry fixed blade knives as a seatbelt removal tool if responding to an accident, or for other tasks such as opening a letter, but NOT as a weapon. But if you must improvise.....

I wouldn't hold it against someone who had to improvise in the course of their duties. But a law enforcement officer who is PLANNING to use it as a secondary? Part of the reason they weren't authorized for us was because our command considered knives to be "bar brawling", unprofessional, detrimental to public trust, and "cruel and inhumane". And personally, I agree to an extent. I don't want to see a cop looking for an excuse to cut someone.

But anyway... none of this side discussion has anything to do with my original intent of chiming in on this thread. Which was to say: One solution does not fit every person and situation. My argument was/is my knife does NOT need to be on my weak side. I'm trained in using knives and handguns, and my knife being on my weak side makes as much sense as having my gun on my weak side.

Weak side carry for me is for "support items" such as flashlights, magazines, cellphone, and cigarettes. All of which I'd be using before, during or after a SD situation. With the possible exception of the light.

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

 

[Cochise]

There needs to be some clarification in this thread as to which tips are viable for the concealed carrying citizen and which are only viable for uniformed LEOS. Obviously, I will never have a baton as an option.
Why should I choose to carry my knife strong side instead of weak side, bearing in mind that the way I have my knife in my pocket makes it awkward and much slower for the opposite hand to draw and open it?

 

[MOTOR51]

If someone's trying to disarm you, it is NOT always a deadly force encounter. As a LEO you should have a duty to FIRST retain your weapon, and THEN deescalate the situation. They don't have your gun, YET. At least that's how I was trained, I dunno, maybe there really is something wrong with civilian cops, seems y'all want to brawl and bar fight.

What to do if you take a hand off your weapon to reach for your knife, and Mr. BG socks you in the gut and manages to get your weapon (because you've reduced your effectiveness of retention by 50% and left your front wide open at the same time)? What then?

But even still. None of that supports the one size fits all statement that one should always carry their knife on their off side, now does it?

Frankly, this is making my already lowered opinion of civilian police even more damaged. Sounds like some **** I'd hear from a thug or some high school bully who WISHES he had the balls to be a Ranger.

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

Apparently marines taught you wrong which isn't surprising considering their is probably very few attempts to disarm LEO'S on the base. In the real world it's a deadly force encounter. I won't argue with you about the war over seas because I haven't been there just like you should stay in your lane regarding law enforcement. And for the record I have absolutely no desire to be a ranger.

 

[Cochise]

The snag mag looks to me like a great option for a single stack mag, because I am a skinny guy who doesn't like baggy pants so I don't want to have to carry everything IWB. I am NOT an expert, though

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Apparently marines taught you wrong which isn't surprising considering their is probably very few attempts to disarm LEO'S on the base. In the real world it's a deadly force encounter. I won't argue with you about the war over seas because I haven't been there just like you should stay in your lane regarding law enforcement. And for the record I have absolutely no desire to be a ranger.

Is your department training you guys to forgo your baton, OC, and taser, and go for your knife? What department is this?

And: you can speak for you, but I see way too many rambo wannabes and have personally known too many rambo wannabes behind a badge. Kudos to you for not having a hard on at the idea of killing someone. *applause, hat tip*

And, I would have stayed in my lane had someone else not stepped into the god lane with "hear me, I know all, for I am cop"

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

 

[MOTOR51]

Is your department training you guys to forgo your baton, OC, and taser, and go for your knife? What department is this?

And: you can speak for you, but I see way too many rambo wannabes and have personally known too many rambo wannabes behind a badge. Kudos to you for not having a hard on at the idea of killing someone. *applause, hat tip*

And, I would have stayed in my lane had someone else not stepped into the god lane with "hear me, I know all, for I am cop"

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

I won't get in to details about our training but will tell you that someone trying to take your gun is considered deadly force. I don't see how it can be deemed anything else.

 

[JR1572]

Is your department training you guys to forgo your baton, OC, and taser, and go for your knife? What department is this?

And: you can speak for you, but I see way too many rambo wannabes and have personally known too many rambo wannabes behind a badge. Kudos to you for not having a hard on at the idea of killing someone. *applause, hat tip*

And, I would have stayed in my lane had someone else not stepped into the god lane with "hear me, I know all, for I am cop"

Come if you must, but only if you must. For the day you find yourself upon my step shall be the night you find peace along Jordan's edge.

At no point did anyone say an agency is authorizing anyone to use a knife before their other weapons. It's a last ditch item to use.

Personally, I would use my knife last, after my BUG doesn't get me the results I want.

JR1572

 

[SteelHorseCowboy]

I won't get in to details about our training but will tell you that someone trying to take your gun is considered deadly force. I don't see how it can be deemed anything else.

Details? It was one simple question. Is your department training you guys to forgo your batons, spray, and taser, and go straight for your knife? Do police departments even train officers in knife fighting? I've never heard of it.

 

[geoney]

Details? It was one simple question. Is your department training you guys to forgo your batons, spray, and taser, and go straight for your knife? Do police departments even train officers in knife fighting? I've never heard of it.

This may surprise you, but when you are a little wiser you will understand two simple truths:

1. Everything the military, Marines, or your "platoon Sgt" told you is not necessarily true.

2. There is more to what makes the world go around than your experiences as a Marine.