FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28 Your Comments

[Nomad.2nd]

You should not care if your defensive handgun round kills. People have been killed with BB guns.

You should care if ti STOPS!

 

[BAYOU922]

I know what a FiveseveN is capable of doing based on physics and an understanding of bullet design. Yes it can absolutely kill something. But shot placement is key. It's not magic.

The same could be said of any pistol bullet.

You should not care if your defensive handgun round kills. People have been killed with BB guns.

You should care if ti STOPS!

Same thing.

In reality, all pistol bullets are highly dependent on shot placement. A pistol bullet will not "stop" a person physiologically unless it strikes a vital structure of some sort.

 

[JWG223]

The same could be said of any pistol bullet.




Same thing.

In reality, all pistol bullets are highly dependent on shot placement. A pistol bullet will not "stop" a person physiologically unless it strikes a vital structure of some sort.

and a 9mm expanded to .60" has a greater chance of striking and damaging said structure than a 5.7 that isn't nearly as big. Further, the 9mm has a greater chance of maintaining its integrity and ability to destroy this structure if it hits an arm etc first, which would defeat the fragmenting versions of 5.7's entire claim to enhanced lethality over a singular wound tract.

 

[BAYOU922]

and a 9mm expanded to .60" has a greater chance of striking and damaging said structure than a 5.7 that isn't nearly as big.

Except for the fact that with proper loads the 5.7x28mm is nearly as big as a 9x19mm JHP. In fact, even the .22 WMR (with a 40-grain bullet at 1890 ft/s) will expand to .48 inches and penetrate 9.2 inches in calibrated ballistic gelatin:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2548.htm

Aside from the penetration depth (which is a few inches short of the FBI minimum), the .22 WMR load in the above link is essentially identical to a 9x19mm JHP. EA's 5.7x28mm loads, fired from the Five-seveN pistol, achieve deeper penetration than that load (via heavier/better bullets) so they meet the FBI minimum with the same level of expansion. The end result is performance that is virtually identical to that of a 9x19mm JHP.

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv

Further, the 9mm has a greater chance of maintaining its integrity and ability to destroy this structure if it hits an arm etc first, which would defeat the fragmenting versions of 5.7's entire claim to enhanced lethality over a singular wound tract.

There are plenty of good 5.7x28mm loads that tumble/expand without fragmenting. The 5.7x28mm need not have "enhanced lethality" over the 9x19mm. It is already superior due to its other attributes, which have already been listed here.

 

[JWG223]

Except for the fact that with proper loads the 5.7x28mm is nearly as big as a 9x19mm JHP. In fact, even the .22 WMR (with a 40-grain bullet at 1890 ft/s) will expand to .48 inches and penetrate 9.2 inches in calibrated ballistic gelatin:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2548.htm

Aside from the penetration depth (which is a few inches short of the FBI minimum), the .22 WMR load in the above link is essentially identical to a 9x19mm JHP. EA's 5.7x28mm loads, fired from the Five-seveN pistol, achieve deeper penetration than that load (via heavier/better bullets) so they meet the FBI minimum with the same level of expansion. The end result is performance that is virtually identical to that of a 9x19mm JHP.

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv




There are plenty of good 5.7x28mm loads that tumble/expand without fragmenting. The 5.7x28mm need not have "enhanced lethality" over the 9x19mm. It is already superior due to its other attributes, which have already been listed here.

Nearly identical in bare gel, but what happens if a windshield or something gets in the way? Besides, why pay a premium for "nearly"? What about if we compare it to something other than the commonly recommended "minimum" caliber that its "nearly" equal to? Like a .40 or .45? I'm far from sold.
Since you want to show me a video filmed by brassfetcher of the most impressive 5.7 round, here is a video by same of an outdated 147gr golden sabre 9mm. http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA

 

[BAYOU922]

Since you want to show me a video filmed by brassfetcher of the most impressive 5.7 round, here is a video by same of an outdated 147gr golden sabre 9mm. http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA

Your link doesn't work. The 147-grain 9x19mm Golden Saber test video by Brassfetcher is indistinguishable to their test video with EA's 5.7x28mm Pro II. Congratulations, you've helped me prove that a good 5.7x28mm load is basically identical to the 9x19mm, which is a widely accepted performer. Here are the videos you were trying to link:

9x19mm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA


5.7x28mm:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv


In fact, the videos aren't even to scale (the 9x19mm video is zoomed in much closer), and they're still basically indistinguishable.

 

[Dave328]

This is soo much more entertaining than the old 9 vs .40 vs .45 threads. Lets get the .357Sig and .45GAP guys in here to tell us how those rounds are the bee's knee's too!

 

[SpeedRacer]

So you buy a $1000+ pistol and stupidly expensive ammo to achieve 9mm performance? I don't get it. Looks like just another group of guys trying to feel special. Every failed, bastard gun and caliber has the group of loyalists/cultists that will never give up on it even after the rest of the world has moved on.

 

[JWG223]

Your link doesn't work. The 147-grain 9x19mm Golden Saber test video by Brassfetcher is indistinguishable to their test video with EA's 5.7x28mm Pro II. Congratulations, you've helped me prove that a good 5.7x28mm load is basically identical to the 9x19mm, which is a widely accepted performer. Here are the videos you were trying to link:

9x19mm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA


5.7x28mm:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv


In fact, the videos aren't even to scale (the 9x19mm video is zoomed in much closer), and they're still basically indistinguishable.

I have helped you prove that on a shot directly into gel, the best possible round for the 5.7x28 is equal to a 2 decade old 2nd generation JHP in 9mm.

YOU have helped ME prove that the best you can do with $1,000 in pistol and hand-loaded ammunition using custom-blended powders is equal my Glock 19 using the shittiest ammo I can find that actually expands.

Sadly for your cause, my jealousy is not aroused.

*I'm sorry the link didn't work, it was a copy/paste on my Droid, but I see you got the content anyhow.

 

[JWG223]

This is soo much more entertaining than the old 9 vs .40 vs .45 threads. Lets get the .357Sig and .45GAP guys in here to tell us how those rounds are the bee's knee's too!

Shhhh. I think the 357SIG is a fun round. Better than 9mm when and where it counts? Only if you're more accurate with it. I still enjoy my P226, though, and it's stoopid accurate (around 1" 5-shot groups hand-held at 25 yards--not with me squeezing the trigger though, sadly. Lot of work until I get there.)

 

[BAYOU922]

So you buy a $1000+ pistol and stupidly expensive ammo to achieve 9mm performance? I don't get it.

If you would actually read the thread, maybe you'd get it. Terminal ballistics is one aspect of the gun. The Five-seveN is an extremely lightweight pistol with low recoil, a very large magazine capacity, and good penetration characteristics.

 

[JWG223]

If you would actually read the thread, maybe you'd get it. Terminal ballistics is one aspect of the gun. The Five-seveN is an extremely lightweight pistol with low recoil, a very large magazine capacity, and good penetration characteristics.

Penetration on what?

Plenty of handguns in more useful calibers are also lightweight and have plenty manageable recoil with high capacity magazines. They are a helluva lot more compact, as well.

 

[BAYOU922]

I have helped you prove that on a shot directly into gel, the best possible round for the 5.7x28 is equal to a 2 decade old 2nd generation JHP in 9mm.

There is no significant difference between the 147-grain 9x19mm load you quoted and current 147-grain 9x19mm loads.

 

[BAYOU922]

Plenty of handguns in more useful calibers are also lightweight and have plenty manageable recoil with high capacity magazines.

Compared to the Five-seveN, they're heavier, they recoil more, they carry less ammo, they cannot penetrate any type of body armor whatsoever, and they do not kill humans any more consistently.

 

[JWG223]

Compared to the Five-seveN, they're heavier, they recoil more, they carry less ammo, they cannot penetrate any type of body armor whatsoever, and they do not kill humans any more consistently.

I beg to differ on the last, and on the former, I also disagree except regarding recoil and capacity, however, too much is given up with the 5.7 for that.

Yes, the HST/DPX/ SXT rounds are worlds ahead of the GS.

How much body armor do you encounter? Don't you think if someone has body armor ANY pistol is going to leave you under-gunned?

 

[SpeedRacer]

If you would actually read the thread, maybe you'd get it. Terminal ballistics is one aspect of the gun. The Five-seveN is an extremely lightweight pistol with low recoil, a very large magazine capacity, and good penetration characteristics.

Lightweight? Who cares, it's too big to carry concealed. Low recoil? So is 9mm. Mag capacity...it has a 3 round advantage over a Glock 17. You're paying a hell of a premium for not much advantage.

 

[Tulse Luper]

Lightweight? Who cares, it's too big to carry concealed....

Bingo, a weather balloon is light weight, but I can't stick it in my pants.

 

[NOLASHOOTER]

So, is that a weather balloon in your pants or are you just happy to see me?

Thank you for making a relatively slow Sunday morning into a great read. I have enjoyed the discussion.

 

[BAYOU922]

I beg to differ on the last, and on the former, I also disagree except regarding recoil and capacity, however, too much is given up with the 5.7 for that.

Nothing substantial is "given up" with the 5.7x28mm, and you have yet to give any valid reason why you beg to differ on the fact that the 5.7x28mm has performed every bit as well as the common pistol calibers in actual verifiable shootings. The only "evidence" to the contrary is unsubstantiated internet hearsay.

Yes, the HST/DPX/ SXT rounds are worlds ahead of the GS.

There is no significant difference between the 147-grain 9x19mm load you quoted and current 147-grain 9x19mm loads.

How much body armor do you encounter?

As a civilian with a CCW, how many criminals have you encountered without body armor? Undoubtedly, zero. By your logic, CCW is also pointless.

Don't you think if someone has body armor ANY pistol is going to leave you under-gunned?

Not at all. Good 5.7x28mm loads are completely unaffected by soft body armor. In fact, bullets of any caliber that can penetrate soft armor are generally not significantly slowed due to penetration of said soft armor.

Lightweight? Who cares, it's too big to carry concealed.

No, it isn't.

You're paying a hell of a premium for not much advantage.

Sorry about your piggy bank, but quite a few people can in fact afford the gun in question, so we appreciate the advantages it offers; even if you don't reload, the factory ammo only costs about as much as .45 ACP, anyway.

 

[JWG223]

Nothing substantial is "given up" with the 5.7x28mm, and you have yet to give any valid reason why you beg to differ on the fact that the 5.7x28mm has performed every bit as well as the common pistol calibers in actual verifiable shootings. The only "evidence" to the contrary is unsubstantiated internet hearsay.

I have yet to read any praise for it by an agency using it.

There is no significant difference between the 147-grain 9x19mm load you quoted and current 147-grain 9x19mm loads.


Then there is no difference in a .22 lr and the 5.7 either I guess, since expansion is no-longer a significant thing to you.

As a civilian with a CCW, how many criminals have you encountered without body armor? Undoubtedly, zero. By your logic, CCW is also pointless.

How many times have you heard of a ccw holder encountering body armor?


Not at all. Good 5.7x28mm loads are completely unaffected by soft body armor. In fact, bullets of any caliber that can penetrate soft armor are generally not significantly slowed due to penetration of said soft armor.
Right, and a .22 pistol is going to be the equal of what a criminal suited up in body armor is likely to have? What sort of mall-ninja fantasyland does this confrontation occur in? The last time I heard about criminals in body armor, they had full-auto AK-47's.



No, it isn't.






Sorry about your piggy bank, but quite a few people can in fact afford the gun in question, so we appreciate the advantages it offers; even if you don't reload, the factory ammo only costs about as much as .45 ACP, anyway.
My piggy-bank is just fine, but I use it to buy more effective platforms.