Issue with No Firearm Signs

[SVT]

"Its not Private Property when you invite the public to come inside." - Says who?

 

[JNieman]

"Its not Private Property when you invite the public to come inside." - Says who?

It's still private property, but you have fewer liberties when you have a 'public invited' property such as commercial stores. There's been a lot of misspoken phrasing on either side of that discussion, causing confusion. It's not just public and private... there are varying levels depending on the occupancy type.

 

[SVT]

It's still private property, but you have fewer liberties when you have a 'public invited' property such as commercial stores.

Says Who?

 

[JNieman]

Says Who?

If you don't know what I'm talking about already I really don't feel like taking the time to go through the conversation to explain it.

 

[UnseenUSPCompact]

You still retain the private property right to ask somebody to leave. I think that people are missing that, I am in no way saying that a business owner does not have the right to ask anybody to leave for ANY reason. Im just stating that a business owner can not dictate what is legal or illegal, such as carrying a firearm. He can ask you to leave all day long and you MUST leave...but you are not doing anything illegal because the store policy is not law until you decide to trespass and not leave. The other aspect is the fact that there are no sign laws in La related to this situation so they are not legal notification of trespassing, you must be personally asked to leave and not leave to be trespassing on a publicly invited private business. Once again just my opinion and the only real points I have been trying to make.

 

[JNieman]

M. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by state or federal law.

N. No concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:

(1) A law enforcement office, station, or building.

(2) A detention facility, prison, or jail.

(3) A courthouse or courtroom, provided that a judge may carry such a weapon in his own courtroom.

(4) A polling place.

(5) A meeting place of the governing authority of a political subdivision.

(6) The state capitol building.

(7) Any portion of an airport facility where the carrying of firearms is prohibited under federal law, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, if the firearm is encased for shipment, for the purpose of checking such firearm as lawful baggage.

(8) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other similar place of worship, eligible for qualification as a tax-exempt organization under 26 U.S.C. 501, except as provided for in Subsection U of this Section.

(9) A parade or demonstration for which a permit is issued by a governmental entity.

(10) Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.

(11) Any school, school campus, or school bus as defined in R.S. 14:95.6.

O. The provisions of Subsection N of this Section shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section. No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry such concealed handgun into the private residence of another without first receiving the consent of that person.

So maybe I'm missing something, but I don't even see where anything says a business owner has a reasonable expectation that you can't enter if you have a gun. He can ask you to leave, but I don't see anything about you breaking the law simply by entering a place.

 

[UnseenUSPCompact]

So maybe I'm missing something, but I don't even see where anything says a business owner has a reasonable expectation that you can't enter if you have a gun. He can ask you to leave, but I don't see anything about you breaking the law simply by entering a place.

This.

 

[Jack]

So maybe I'm missing something, but I don't even see where anything says a business owner has a reasonable expectation that you can't enter if you have a gun. He can ask you to leave, but I don't see anything about you breaking the law simply by entering a place.

The provisions of Subsection N of this Section shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section.

 

[JNieman]

The provisions of Subsection N of this Section shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section.

I've /never/ contested that being in the law.

 

[Jack]

It is his right to restrict, he posts signs informing you he is excercising his right. It is reasonable of him to expect you to respect his property rights.

 

[JNieman]

It is his right to restrict, he posts signs informing you he is excercising his right. It is reasonable of him to expect you to respect his property rights.

I'm not talking about "good will" and "respect" - I'm talking about legal and more importantly 'enforcable'.

I already don't have respect for gun bans.

 

[Jack]

I'm not talking about "good will" and "respect" - I'm talking about legal and more importantly 'enforcable'.

I already don't have respect for gun bans.

Enforceable is a whole different animal. In my opinion it is illegal to knowingly enter, when you see a sign that has forbidden your entrance. The issue is proving you saw the sign. There is no established guidelines for the signs that make them a catch all. As it is now, you are trespassing, however it can't be proven you knew you weren't allowed until someone comes and sees you.

Illegal yes, enforceable no.

 

[UnseenUSPCompact]

Enforceable is a whole different animal. In my opinion it is illegal to knowingly enter, when you see a sign that has forbidden your entrance. The issue is proving you saw the sign. There is no established guidelines for the signs that make them a catch all. As it is now, you are trespassing, however it can't be proven you knew you weren't allowed until someone comes and sees you.

Illegal yes, enforceable no.

There is no law making it illegal to "not see a sign" in Louisiana. Texas yes, Louisiana no. Enforcable or not its NOT illegal.

 

[JNieman]

Enforceable is a whole different animal. In my opinion it is illegal to knowingly enter, when you see a sign that has forbidden your entrance. The issue is proving you saw the sign. There is no established guidelines for the signs that make them a catch all. As it is now, you are trespassing, however it can't be proven you knew you weren't allowed until someone comes and sees you.

Illegal yes, enforceable no.

Like I said from the get-go "Sorry, I didn't see the sign" is all it takes, imo. I'd never stay after being asked to leave. I just believe that we (business owner and customer) can have a mutually exclusive relationship mostly of avoidance, and both benefit from it. They get my money, I get the product I wanted.

I've been /trying/ to explain it that way the whole time but I guess clarity was poor. I'm not worried about the letter of the law, but more concerned about how it actually effects day-to-day life.

 

[JNieman]

There is no law making it illegal to "not see a sign" in Louisiana. Texas yes, Louisiana no. Enforcable or not its NOT illegal.

That's also the point, and where traffic signs come in to play.

There are rules about a sign having to be clear, that can be brought up before a judge. There are rules about sizes of signs, placement, and how often they shall be placed. There are detailed rules about what has to be said, and you have to confirm you understand these signs and what they mean before you're allowed on the road. You then have the ability, in the case of a grey area, to go before a judge and say "Didn't see the sign, it was obscured" (as I did when I ran a stop sign that was completely obscured by a tree. Took pictures, judge said "yep, not his fault" and I was off)

So even for signs that have volumes of tomes written about their standardized size, lettering, placement, and rules - a sign not being reasonably clear is not an enforceable sign.

When you have a situation where there is /no standard/ - I find it hard to believe there is expectation to gracefully adhere to a sign you may or may not see, and may or may not interpret differently than intended depending on sign content.

 

[returningliberty]

Like I said from the get-go "Sorry, I didn't see the sign" is all it takes, imo. I'd never stay after being asked to leave. I just believe that we (business owner and customer) can have a mutually exclusive relationship mostly of avoidance, and both benefit from it. They get my money, I get the product I wanted.

I've been /trying/ to explain it that way the whole time but I guess clarity was poor. I'm not worried about the letter of the law, but more concerned about how it actually effects day-to-day life.

I don't think Anyone was saying "you're going to get arrested the moment you walk in". That's certainly not what I meant in the other thread.

But, lets take an example. Say you're CC'ing into a movie theater (one of the few places I myself might say "damn the sign") and there's a sign on the door. You neglect or opt not to notice it. Someone notices your gun somehow and goes and tells the Police Officer in the front, not management. Said officer decides to confront you.

How do you think it's going to go down? Him saying "hey bro, you need to leave." Or you catching a charge?

 

[JNieman]

It's always possible a cop will charge you with something that you will be found innocent of. There's a reason to keep a lawyer retainer handy.

You carry a gun with the expectation that you might have to shoot a mother****er and you wish to prepare for this. Do you not think that it's possible you may be charged with some form of manslaughter until the smoke clears and level heads prevail? Risk vs reward. /shrug The phrase/meme/pic making rounds recently, that I saw said "Guns are like parachutes in a way. If you need one and don't have one, you can rest assured you'll never need one again."

 

[UnseenUSPCompact]

How do you think it's going to go down? Him saying "hey bro, you need to leave." Or you catching a charge?

All he can do is ask you to leave because you are not breaking the law...If he does anything else he would be in the wrong.

 

[Jack]

There is no law making it illegal to "not see a sign" in Louisiana. Texas yes, Louisiana no. Enforcable or not its NOT illegal.

You're right, but if you do see the sign and go in, it is illegal. It is impossible to prove you saw the sign, making it unenforceable.

 

[Jack]

It's always possible a cop will charge you with something that you will be found innocent of. There's a reason to keep a lawyer retainer handy.

You carry a gun with the expectation that you might have to shoot a mother****er and you wish to prepare for this. Do you not think that it's possible you may be charged with some form of manslaughter until the smoke clears and level heads prevail? Risk vs reward. /shrug The phrase/meme/pic making rounds recently, that I saw said "Guns are like parachutes in a way. If you need one and don't have one, you can rest assured you'll never need one again."

And this is the difference between us, I have enough respect for the rights of others to wait until the **** hits redbox.