A LONG take on the Awerbuck class

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  • greg t

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    Now that the proverbial cat's out of the bag about my "profession", you should realize why this is so long ... sorry for those who have a short attention span.

    A LONG take on the Awerbuck class
    I had the sincere pleasure of attending Louis Awerbuck’s Shotgun I class May 8-10.

    When I was growing up, there was one name everyone associated with shotgun training – Awerbuck. I didn’t even know how to pronounce the name; hell, I didn’t even know anything about the man. But every gun rag on the newsstand with an article about scatterguns dropped his name. For him to still be around more than 15 years later is testament enough that what he teaches is good stuff.

    So for three days the master of “the gauge” passed on just a touch his knowledge to the 13 of us who were man enough to leave our egos in the parking lot of the LSU Police Department’s range in Baton Rouge, La. The couple of us who forgot to check our egos had them checked pretty quickly by the self-proclaimed “midget” from South Africa.

    I’ve always been a pretty fast shooter, often sacrificing accuracy for raw speed. One of the first drills we did was on hanging steel plates. After running both of our relays through hitting the steel, Awerbuck brought up two students at a time, one on each set of three plates. Though he said it wasn’t a head-to-head competition, it was hard to get past the testosterone. I mean, that’s like telling a guy in a Mustang and a guy in a Camaro it’s not a race when they show up at a traffic light. So, of course I went too fast and dropped a shot … from about 5 yds, on a 10” hanging plate, with #8 birdshot.

    After asking my age, he told the older gentlemen behind me to pass on the story of the young and old bull looking down on a group of heffers. Of course, I knew better, but even at 30, I still have a bit of the young bull in me, and I showed it, plain and simple.

    I’m not going to go through all three days of instruction; if you want to know what’s taught, take the class. But here are my takeaways from each day.

    Day 1
    The morning class was long and drawn out, but it was also interesting. His formula for iron sight correction is getting laminated and going in a save file where it won’t get lost. Two important lessons from day one had nothing to do with the shotgun or even shooting: first, unless you absolutely, positively REQUIRE it, leave your cell phone in your vehicle; and two, don’t be “that guy” who’s late. When Awerbuck broke us for lunch, he gave us an hour … and “that guy” was 20 minutes late.

    One of the basics of running the gauge is loading, and Awerbuck’s method of loading is slightly different from what I’ve used. But after doing it his way for three days, I’m going to stick with it. His method places the brass against the pinky, finding the big hole in the bottom of the gun, and then rotating your thumb around to the back to shove it forward into the magazine tube. There is actually quite a bit of fine-motor skills required with this method, but after a little practice, there’s very little fumbling involved. I’m confident it will become second nature after a week or so of GOOD dry practice.

    While loading, he constantly stressed NOT looking at the gun. The man is full of absolutely hilarious phrases, and the one he used here was probably one of the best over the whole course (something about your virginity and not being able to see the hole anyway, I think you can figure the rest out). Thankfully, I had practiced loading without looking at the weapon the whole week prior, so I didn’t have any issues there. Some guys obviously hadn’t practiced it that much and ended up dropping quite a bit of live rounds the first day. One of his rules is never to pick up rounds from the ground, and I think I only lost about two or three through the entire course.

    The first day was also an eye opener to me, and again, it had nothing to do with the gun or shooting. I’m going to be brutally honest, and if you were in the course and are reading this, I hope you know it doesn’t apply to everyone. First of all, as many of the other students learned, I’m an active-duty Marine and have been for over 10 years. That means, for over 10 years, the vast majority of weapons training I’ve done has been with other Marines, and we’ve all had more or less the same training. I was completely shocked when I “realized” there were guys at this class who didn’t really have much in the way of firearms handling experience or the mindset to use them.

    Now, I’ll be the first to admit I am by no means some special forces operator with trigger time in far away lands. But what I do have is the mindset that someone determined to do me or my family harm is going to meet the maximum resistance I can possibly muster against them. Enough about that …

    Day 2
    Awerbuck’s target presentations were completely different from anything I’ve seen before. The use of no-shoot targets in front of and behind the steel shoot targets was amazing! I can honestly say, I didn’t hit the no-shoot targets at all, even if that meant holding back a shot from what was called for. The poor “friendlies” were chewed up pretty bad by birdshot the first couple times we ran through drills with the no-shoots behind the steel … again, the mindset issue at play. He continued to stress thinking about the no-shoots as our family members, and continually they were peppered with shot. Apparently, someone must have thought of them as their in-laws or something!

    One of the most important parts of this course for me came at the end of day two, literally: the night shoot. Both in the class at the beginning of the first day, and sporadically throughout day two, he told us how important having a weapon-mounted light on the shotgun was going to be. There were a handful of students who found out exactly how hard it is to run a pump gun while holding a flashlight in their non-firing hand, especially when the drill called for going from buckshot to a slug (known as a “select slug” drill). Some tried duct taping a light to their forend, but that didn’t work out too well for most. I was smart and purchased a Sure-Fire forend a couple weeks before the course, and I must say that was probably the BEST $200 gun accessory I’ve ever bought!

    CONTINUED
     

    greg t

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    Day 3
    I pretty much cruised through the first two days, but day three promised a challenge as we started getting into transitioning from the shotgun to the pistol and back. We also worked on firing while moving.

    Awerbuck also had us going the absolute best drill of the entire course, an individual drill where the shooter started centered on the plate rack and moved continually which ever way he yelled all the while shooting the steel in between two no-shoot targets in front, avoiding the two no-shoot targets behind and keeping rounds in the gun. I did pretty well until I realized I had forgotten to keep topping the gun off. By the end of my run, I was doing a classic shoot-one-load-one type of thing – not ideal at all. I took a couple minutes after the drill to run through it again in my head and figure out exactly why I forgot to load. Was it the constant yelling in my ear? Nope, I heard him yelling, but it didn’t really bother me at all (must have gotten used to it at Parris Island). I came to the conclusion I was so focused on the targets and the relationship between the shoot and no-shoot targets, I had simply reached the maximum capacity of information my brain could process, and something had to fall by the wayside.

    In hindsight, I’m not upset at all about that subconscious decision. I could have remembered to reload and forgotten about the no-shoot targets. That would have meant death for my family in that scenario. I could have remembered to reload but forgotten to move. That could have meant death for me if I was taking incoming fire. Of those choices, I will gladly take forgetting to reload since I probably would have a pistol to transition to in the event the gauge runs dry.

    Speaking of transitioning to the pistol, we did some drills both dry and live. I’ve done transition work from long gun to pistol but never back from pistol to long gun, so that took me a couple dry runs to wrap my head around.

    Even before the transition work, we shot pistol only drills to make sure everyone was at least slightly proficient. I don’t want to start some kind of this versus that war, but the first relay had two 1911’s that had malfunctions. Awerbuck even commented most of the pistols going down in his classes of late were 1911’s. Oh well, one day I’ll own one, but that’s another story all together!

    The second best drill of the course was shot on the Mirage Target System. I’ve never shot on a three-dimensional target before, and this compounded with a three-dimensional target space (shoot targets in front of no-shoot targets) was a lot of information to process. At least a couple shots taken by other students were questionable at best to me. When I ran the drills on these targets, I chose to wait until I had a no-****, 100 percent clear shot before taking it.

    One of the students had the target move just as his shot broke, so his perfectly clear target ended up going through to the no-shoot behind. There was absolutely nothing he could do about it; you can’t pull the shot back in the split second between the hammer falling and the round leaving the barrel.

    Overall
    One question many will ask is, “Was it worth it?” And my answer is a resounding YES!

    However, there are some caveats. In my honest opinion, you should:
    - even if you are taking a foundation class, know your weapon and how to use it
    - have a solid grasp of the fundamentals (trigger control, breath control, sight alignment, sight picture, follow through)
    - have the proper mindset (to me that means showing up to a defensive shotgun class with the mindset you may have to employ these skills against a “bad guy” who’s trying to do you or your family harm)
    - know that there are going to be shooters of all skill levels in these foundation classes
    - realize that there may be students who have physical limitations and please be patient and help them as much as possible.

    I have purposely avoided talking about equipment as that is an entirely different can of worms. If anyone wants to know specifics, I’d be happy to share, but I don’t think it’s germane to this discussion.

    I left the class with a ****-ton more information and ability than I showed up with, and after all, isn’t that the point of these classes?! I also can’t overlook the fact I got to train with an icon of the training community.

    Background
    In order to give some perspective to this, I thought it prudent to give a little background about me.

    I’ve been what I would call a “shooter” for the last 16 years, and as noted above, I’ve been an active-duty Marine for more than 10 years. I’ve done quite a bit of training in tactics and on various weapons systems throughout my time in the Marine Corps. However, I am NOT some SpecOps black-bag operator; I’m a journalist! As such, I get to experience a vast cross section training.
     

    spanky

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    Great write up, Greg and it was nice meeting you. My writeup wasn't nearly as extensive but that's because I have a shitty memory. You touched on some great points though and there's not anything there that I'd disagree with.

    Note to self: When making sure you have EVERYTHING with you, make sure your money is one of them. That way you don't have to have your phone on you and have it going off every 10 minutes. :rofl:
     

    greg t

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    Great write up, Greg and it was nice meeting you. My writeup wasn't nearly as extensive but that's because I have a shitty memory. You touched on some great points though and there's not anything there that I'd disagree with.

    Note to self: When making sure you have EVERYTHING with you, make sure your money is one of them. That way you don't have to have your phone on you and have it going off every 10 minutes. :rofl:

    DEFINITELY good meeting you too!

    And yes, being able to pay the lady WITHOUT your phone going off "13 times" would be a definite plus in the next course! :mamoru:

    One thing I didn't mention initially was an important overall lesson. As Louis said, "These guns are man-made, so they WILL break." We saw a LOT of malfunctions; more than I thought we would see, that's for sure. I always thought of the pump gun as the epitome of simple reliability, but we all saw that is definitely NOT the case. Some ammo (I won't say which kind) gave major problems to two Mossbergs

    Another thing worth mentioning is so-called "Dutch loading" or mixing buckshot, birdshot, and/or slugs. We did some drills specifically to prove how bad an idea "Dutch loading" really is. I will NEVER "Dutch load" my gun.
     

    greg t

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    On a serious note - for those of you who took this class as your first class - do you think there is a meaningful difference between this type of training and backyard training? In other words, do you think you could have taught yourself what you learned in this class if you never had the direction of an instructor?

    This was my first civilian course, so I may be a little skewed. I'm going to be brutally honest and say probably 85-90 percent of the techniques could have been learned in a backyard setting. (Wait for it ... cuz there's always a "but" when you say something like that!) HOWEVER, I'm confident that last 10-15 percent is what will spell the difference between living and dying. That is an important distinction I can't make strong enough.

    Anyone can learn how to load, select slug, pattern their gun, blah blah blah. But you canNOT learn how to do all of that under pressure, while you're sliding around on debris littered across the deck (that's "floor" for you land-lubbers) in the dark in the back yard.

    We have to be realistic here. While we were packing up and talking the last day, I told someone "you can ALWAYS build yourself a better mousetrap". We can play the what-if game until the cows came home, but the fact remains, we are most likely going to fight when it's dark, under horrible conditions (e.g. startled out of a deep sleep), in less-than-ideal clothing, with no hearing protection, and completely taken by surprise.

    If you think your backyard training with your buddy is going to prepare you for that, I wish you well, and I'll pray for you. Me, I'll pay the money and get the training.
     

    aroundlsu

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    If you can afford to pay Awerbuck to come to your backyard for training, then sure it's comparable. Books are fun to read but I can tell you firsthand all that information goes out the window when the bullets start flying and the pressure is on.

    One of the advantages of a class is to see how well you personally perform under pressure. If you can reload and keep up the hits on the bad guys and miss the good guys all with 12 real guys watching plus Louis yelling RIGHT LEFT BACK FORWARD RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT 4 TO GO then you are doing alright.

    I agree that was the most fun drill of the whole weekend. I went into an autopilot mode and have very little memory of what happened during the drill. All I remember is at the end Louis was smiling and said "Great hitting, Slick." So I guess I did alright. I don't remember a click so I guess I kept up the reloading. Wish I had a video.

    If you can find a way to simulate all that in your backyard I'll pay admission to come play.
     

    greg t

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    Ah, so. NOW I know the reason for all the titters when MY phone went off unexpectedly. I thought everyone found my ring tone amusing... now the truth comes out. There were felony transgressors before me! :D

    I dropped by Friday afternoon to visit a bit. Louis is a hoot, and I would certainly sign up for a pistol or carbine class of his. I just have no desire to beat myself up with three days of shotgunning, even though much of it is bird shot. BTDT; fun, it ain't.

    Good write-up, Greg. You pegged it; you haven't lived until you've trained under the tutelage of a world-class instructor like Louis Awerbuck. There are a ton of guys with shingles hung out; very, VERY few have the depth and breadth of experience like Louis does.

    .
    I thought that was you! For some reason, I thought you'd be taller ... at least Louis wasn't the only "midget" on the range :rofl:
     

    LACamper

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    I have purposely avoided talking about equipment as that is an entirely different can of worms. If anyone wants to know specifics, I’d be happy to share, but I don’t think it’s germane to this discussion.

    As I'm in the process of putting together a shotgun, I'd love to hear an equipment review. As in what worked/what was a waste of money. Particularly the waste of money part before I waste mine. I'd like to take some of these classes but I know there's no point in taking them with inferior/defective weapons. That would also be a waste of money. Mine still need some alterations and TLC.
     

    LACamper

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    I've got a basic remmy with an 18 1/2" tube and even night sights (they're dim but I couldn't pass up the deal on the short barrel). I don't have a good way to carry extra ammo (butt cuff for now). I don't have a mag extension (I'm leaning towards the 2 shot Wilson unless someone has a better suggestion). I still have basic beat up wooden furniture. I don't care about tacticool, but I shot GBUndersea's with a pistol grip and collapsable stock and I like the recoil control. I've got a basic nylon wal mart type (safe 2 point) sling.
    I have a flashlight mount that is OK at best. I have a spare Brinkman AA 3 LED light which is good enough to clear the house at best, which is what it was meant for.
     

    Richierich

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    If only ya could get your hands on one of these. Just add a light and your good to go.

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/p4ebtj1jR7c&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/p4ebtj1jR7c&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
     

    Request Dust Off

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    questions for those that went to the class.

    Regarding weapons lights:
    I had a friend that was a LtCol in the Marine Corp. We would talk about different gun/tactical issues. He didn't think weapons lights were that good. Then he went through the training & thought they were OK but still not that impressive. Near the end of the training they had to play the role of BG & be on the receiving end of the weapons lights & that is what convinced him more than anything of the effectiveness of the weapons light.

    I didn't realize the class also included some night action. Was there a course outline posted somewhere. (I don't remember seeing it). Not like I could have made it right now anyway.

    The one thing I am wondering at this point is why use a shotgun with a slug as opposed to a rifle. 437.5 grains of slug is way more than 62-200 grains. Did they cover when/why to use the shotgun as opposed to the rifle. I have my thoughts but I'm not the guy making a living teaching classes & selling videos. Was 12 vs 20 even discussed?

    What pistol did Awerbuck use or suggest as opposed to the 1911? 1911s have an appeal but a Glock etc. is hard to argue against even though I don't enjoy shooting them all that much.

    Where is your thumb supposed to be according to Awerbuck. Did he avocate pointing down the fore end with your index finger like some clay instructors do? Did they get into stance & both eye vs 1 eye? I'm thinking since you were on the move stance was hard to establish/maintain. Interestingly at least one of the clay instructors says remove the bead for better results. I have to say a vented rib is something I am spoiled for.

    What ammo was a problem? El cheapo bird shot or defensive buck/slug. I know when I start having problems with a pump gun it just seems like I can't do anything right & it is all operator induced error.
    There are some people that think a semi-auto is a better choice for a defensive shotgun, was that discussed?

    Sounds like it was fun & informative.
     

    greg t

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    I'd like to add a little to what Paul already responded, so here goes:
    Was 12 vs 20 even discussed?
    Yes it was discussed as we had someone shooting an 1100 in 20 ga. Awerbuck says the 12 & 20 are basically identical out to ~35 yds. One thing that was overlooked by the guy shooting the 20 was loading into a skinnier hole on the bottom of the receiver. If you have fat fingers/thumbs, the 20 might not be the best option for you.

    What pistol did Awerbuck use or suggest as opposed to the 1911? 1911s have an appeal but a Glock etc. is hard to argue against even though I don't enjoy shooting them all that much.
    He made very FEW hard and fast suggestions. Paul hit the nail on the head about 1911s that are too tight. I think Awerbuck likes the XD, and he even showed a little trick regarding loading 9mm rounds in the compact .40 magazines for use in the XD9. IIRC, this gains you about 3 rounds, but don't quote me on that.

    Where is your thumb supposed to be according to Awerbuck.
    He advocates the thumb on your firing hand be pointing forward on top of the receiver NOT crossed over the back of it (see the bleeding face pic for why), and this applies for ALL long arms with traditional stocks (i.e. non-pistol grip stocks).

    Did he avocate pointing down the fore end with your index finger like some clay instructors do?
    If you try doing it that way with a Sure-Fire forend, you'll find it's another self-correcting behavior. In other words, DON'T DO IT!

    Did they get into stance & both eye vs 1 eye? I'm thinking since you were on the move stance was hard to establish/maintain.
    Yes, he talked about stance.

    Interestingly at least one of the clay instructors says remove the bead for better results. I have to say a vented rib is something I am spoiled for.
    Apples & oranges here ... this is a fighting gun and needs to shoot pretty much point of aim/point of impact at 25 yds. The vent rib raises your pattern for wing shooting and would wreak havoc on a fighting gun (BTW, that's MY opinion there).

    What ammo was a problem? El cheapo bird shot or defensive buck/slug. I know when I start having problems with a pump gun it just seems like I can't do anything right & it is all operator induced error.
    Cheap Winchester birdshot with the "silver" colored base/rim. Something in the metallurgy does NOT agree with pump guns. This is yet another reason to get out and shoot/pattern your intended carry ammo in your intended carry weapon.

    There are some people that think a semi-auto is a better choice for a defensive shotgun, was that discussed?
    It was discussed a little here and there, but he absolutely would NOT push anything. His take was simply a reliable weapon that would shoot where he wanted it to. The one advantage of a semi-auto over the pump is one-handed continuity of fire, and that advantage is multiplied with a weapon-mounted light that can be switched on and left on. Honestly, I was completely surprised Paul's 11-87 didn't have any problems. I'm kind of kicking myself for getting rid of my 11-87p way back when :rolleyes:
     

    greg t

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    I should have been more clear. I didn't mean could the MATERIAL be learned in the backyard - it could - I meant do those that did this think they could have come out with the same preparedness "just a doin it" by themselves in the backyard.
    You were crystal clear ... sometimes I say what is probably obvious just because I don't want there to be any question. ;)

    I learned more than just raw skill/technique in this class. As an example, how many know the angle at which skip fire would come off concrete? A lot of driveways are concrete, so that knowledge is especially applicable in a home-defense situation.
     

    Request Dust Off

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    Gents,
    Thanks for the answers. Sounds like it was an excellent class and not just a "Bill of Goods" type of situation. I have attended classes & training on various (non-gun) topics and sometimes they don't live up to the hype. Hindsight is 20-20 and it easy to say I could have done that in my back yard after someone shows it to you. A bad scenario is you practice something then find out you have been practicing a bad habit.

    Awerbuck seems to have delivered the goods from the sound of things. I'm sure the next training classes will have less skeptics.

    If it sounds like I'm admitting I was skeptical, I was to a degree.

    Thanks,
    RDO
     

    chooy721

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    Nice meeting you guys, I think it was spanky that invited me on the forum. I wrote some of this stuff down for my own sake and posted this in other places

    Day 1

    The morning was a lot of information. We sat in the class room going over safety info, range commands, talked about ballistics, the importance of understanding your sites, right handed, left handed shooting, going over each persons weapons make/model advantages, absolute necessities on a shotgun for a fight, etc. A plethora of info.

    We then went out to the range and practiced loading and unloading. Since everyone brought different weapons everyone had different weapons considerations for their weapons manipulations. Though making hits is undeniably important, we all found out that it is was weapons manipulations that f'd us especially when doing things under pressure during certain drills.

    L.A. spent so much time talking with individuals about their particular weapons set up, the pros and cons. As you can imagine with 13 different people with 13 different weapons with 40,000 different extra crap attached to the weapons the talking was extensive.

    LA prefers to bottom load with the left hand for the right handed shooter. Eyes are always down range assessing,looking. You are advised to not look down at your hands while loading. The muzzle should be pointing down while loading,too. Two position while loading:

    1. The stock can be underneath the right armpit while loading with the left hand, muzzle down.

    2.Or you can hold the stock in like you would while firing but the butt is still close to your armpit, muzzle down.

    You should not reload pointing the barrel straight out, you are too weak, and the weapon can be taken from you easily. If you personally choose to side load, bottom load, load on your head, as long as it was safe LA didn't care. He showed us his preferences, the reasons why he did things, and let us decide.

    This was a "gunfight" class and LA did not want to change habits that were ingrained for 20 years unless they were totally unsafe, and as long as we were making the hits.

    We shot mostly at 10-15 yards out with the occasional 25 or 50 yard slug shot throughout the class.We did some basic shooting to make sure we were squared away with range commands, load, safety on, sling shotguns, low ready etc.We started patterning shots at 15-25 yards with buck and bird. After understanding shot patterning we analyzed the pros/cons of our sites. We had a lot of bead sites, some rifle, few ghost ring sites. Bead sites were not a problem for me since my barrel and sites were dead accurate. Others were off on windage with their bead sites and you basically had to send that barrel to a special smith to fix that. Other people with rifle sites were zeroed in.

    We ended up doing more drills loading unloading firing. Finished up with rolling thunder. Fun drill on steel targets!!! For us pump guys we had ingrained in us to rack the action after every shot to get ready for the next shot just in case the bad guy didn't fall or in case there were other bad guys
     

    chooy721

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    Day 2

    We started the day later since we collectively wanted to shoot at night, so we started at noon. We shot the rolling thunder drill mixing up the order of the shooters to mess with our heads and some basic warm up drills. The reason for mixing up drills was to show us that the stress of performance under pressure would deteriorate or weapons handling skills if we let the pressure get to us. We were on a safe basic range doing more complex drills, no one was shooting at us and we were messing up left and right...

    Afterwards we did some slug shooting. We learned how to select slugs in our guns and then mixed up drills shooting shot on steel and slugs on paper.

    The night shoot really showed us the importance of having a mounted light on our weapons. I duct taped a surefire to the action of my gun and the experience sucked as predicted by LA. We incorporated drills moving laterally trying not to shoot innocent paper targets while shooting bad steel targets. This meant that we had to pay attention to the foreground, background, as well as finding the appropriate shooting angles to make the shot without peppering the innocent. Well we shot up the innocent pretty darn well. One of the more interesting drills were selecting slugs to shoot paper while trying to shoot steel while moving. You couldn't shoot the steel targets with slugs since they would ricochet, so the lesson was to know what the heck you were shooting at all times. You had to place the right ammo in the right order to shoot the right sequence. If you are shooting steel paper steel, placing shot slug shot in your gun was NOT the right order. Think about it! We ended the night shooting at 50 yards with slug at night.
     

    chooy721

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    Day 3

    Transitioning to pistol day. Since people had different slings (two point, single point, etc) LA gave us options on how to transition to pistol. If you carried American, African, two point, three point, etc there was a way to transition to your pistol. We shot pistols only initially to make sure our groups were tight enough. Since we were shooting on paper and steel again later through the day, we had to make sure we were precise enough so that our pistol ammo didn't land on the steel targets. After practicing our draws and shots LA gave us all suggestions on how to improve our pistol shooting. We then did scenario shots with innocent people in the foreground and background, finding the angles to make the safe shot and then transitioning to pistols. We constantly mixed it up working by ourselves, getting commands from LA, giving our own commands, shooting on our own...so much shooting and thinking and moving and using our weapons in interesting combos. It imparted on me that doing things one way safely with my gun was the best way for me to load, reload, shoot, transition, etc.

    At the end we gathered some slugs and shot at some dummies (humanoid). The dummies were attached to a moving platform that LA controlled. We had to shoot the bad guy without shooting the good guy which meant more lateral movement, decision making, finding the angle, etc. Head shots only. We did this in pairs as well, again mixing it up all the time. Communications were key as well, learning how to talk to each other was more challenging than it looked.
     
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