bjj as an officer?

[Dishonored]

I may be way off base here...
But I would say hapkido for the win over BJJ.
Taken both and purely in my opinion I would feel hapkido is better suited with less time spent on the ground and more of a defensive approach. Also from some of the techniques we were taught it works well for multiple attackers using their momentum against them.
Again I'm not as experienced as any of you in this thread so if I am totally wrong IM sorry

 

[Knave]

In your JuJitsu gym how many times do you get punched in the face or hit with hard things while working from the guard?

I would say getting punched in the face while working from the guard is much more likely to happen in a BJJ gym, since many BJJ gyms are MMA stables as well.

Compared to many other arts, which never adequately address the position at all from either an offensive or defensive standpoint (punching someone with an effective guard takes training too).


Anyways, I'm completely serious. I can probably set something up in the BR area if there was enough interest.

Get me a couple police officers without grappling experience. I think I can provide the grapplers/fighters. We'll put together a traffic stop style scenario where the grappler may or may not spontaneously engage with the officer with the intent to either disarm them or choke them.

 

[Bayoupiper]

I would say getting punched in the face while working from the guard is much more likely to happen in a BJJ gym, since many BJJ gyms are MMA stables as well.

Compared to many other arts, which never adequately address the position at all from either an offensive or defensive standpoint (punching someone with an effective guard takes training too).


Anyways, I'm completely serious. I can probably set something up in the BR area if there was enough interest.

Get me a couple police officers without grappling experience. I think I can provide the grapplers/fighters. We'll put together a traffic stop style scenario where the grappler may or may not spontaneously engage with the officer with the intent to either disarm them or choke them.

In the scenario you are laying out, of an actively fighting subject, cops aren't going to grapple.

They will beat your grapplers/fighters to a pulp with their batons, spray paint them with pepper spray, and probably hospitalize several of them.

In this type of situation cops fight dirty.



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[Red Ryder]

In the scenario you are laying out, of an actively fighting subject, cops aren't going to grapple.

They will beat your grapplers/fighters to a pulp with their batons, spray paint them with pepper spray, and probably hospitalize several of them.

In this type of situation cops fight dirty.



.

If you are in a fair fight you are not doing it properly.

To loosely quote a wise man, "They don't pay me prize fighter wages...they pay me to win. They give me a whole utility belt full of goodies to help me win. Failing that I will use anything at hand."

 

[Dishonored]

I would say getting punched in the face while working from the guard is much more likely to happen in a BJJ gym, since many BJJ gyms are MMA stables as well.

Compared to many other arts, which never adequately address the position at all from either an offensive or defensive standpoint (punching someone with an effective guard takes training too).


Anyways, I'm completely serious. I can probably set something up in the BR area if there was enough interest.

Get me a couple police officers without grappling experience. I think I can provide the grapplers/fighters. We'll put together a traffic stop style scenario where the grappler may or may not spontaneously engage with the officer with the intent to either disarm them or choke them.

BJJ is a great art. It has it's places. Amongst LEO probably not so much. It is no doubt a good background to have but they have others I would look to first if I were LE.


IE: one attacker. You decide you want to go to the ground and "grapple" said person in order to subdue. While paying attention to your BJJ techniques and motions out of no where his buddy comes and kicks you sqayre in uour head. Now you are dazed and on your back already. This could very well happen standing up but you can be more aware on your feet rather than wrestling on the ground.

Disclaimer: I am basing my .02 off of what techniques I have learned and my idea of what position/scenario a cop would be put in. Then what I would or wouldn't want to do in that position/scenario.

 

[Knave]

In the scenario you are laying out, of an actively fighting subject, cops aren't going to grapple.

They will beat your grapplers/fighters to a pulp with their batons, spray paint them with pepper spray, and probably hospitalize several of them.

In this type of situation cops fight dirty.

No offense intended, but IMO this is asinine and is not backed up by video evidence of officers being spontaneously attacked. Off the top of my head, the only example I can think of is the video of the officer being attacked by the EDP (with an umbrella or something, don't remember exactly) walking down the road while the officer was conducting an unrelated traffic stop. Anyway, you can easily include the use of inert spray, training batons, and blue guns into such a training scenario, and the results would be the same.

Defensive tactics curriculums typically teach about reactionary gap for this very reason. Furthermore, history has shown us that criminals intent on killing the officer and escaping at all costs will fight just as "dirty" as anyone else. My point is that there is a real danger of an officer being surprised with overwhelming physical force, grounded, and killed and that many officers are not specifically prepared for that scenario. Their defense against that is predicated on the assumption that they will be able to access and effectively deploy a weapon without it being controlled, taken away, or otherwise overcome by the assailant. There are numerous cases of dead officers that can teach us the danger in that assumption.

BJJ is a great art. It has it's places. Amongst LEO probably not so much. It is no doubt a good background to have but they have others I would look to first if I were LE.

IE: one attacker. You decide you want to go to the ground and "grapple" said person in order to subdue. While paying attention to your BJJ techniques and motions out of no where his buddy comes and kicks you sqayre in uour head. Now you are dazed and on your back already. This could very well happen standing up but you can be more aware on your feet rather than wrestling on the ground.

I totally agree with the first statement. I posted about how so much of BJJ just isn't really applicable to law enforcement in a directly practical way. For example, if an officer were to train two nights a week for two hours a night in a martial art, I would say by and large Judo or Sambo would be the most directly beneficial to police for a variety of reasons, providing a very powerful base on which police-specific training can be added.


Your example though is unrealistic IMO because it assumes a poor application of skills and illogical thought process on the part of the officer, as well as assuming a danger far outside of his immediate influence. For instance, the Mumia case is a famous example of a guy's buddy coming out of nowhere and murdering a solo officer, having nothing to do with stand up vs. ground. It's just a very bad situation regardless of any martial arts background at all. Regardless, having a basic level of ground survival skills would be extremely important for the officer in your setup, because a more likely scenario might be that the officer goes to cuff the suspect, and the suspect and his unseen friend spontaneously ground and attempt to murder the officer. Effective ground defense could save his life.

In any case, what you described is actually what officers do every day. Ground suspects in an attempt to subdue them and take them into custody. Ideally (and usually) officers are on the better side of the numbers, with two or more officers grounding and subduing one suspect. In those situations a strong grappling skillset could still be useful, but most officers would see it as a superfluous investment of their personal time.

 

[returningliberty]

In the scenario you are laying out, of an actively fighting subject, cops aren't going to grapple.

They will beat your grapplers/fighters to a pulp with their batons, spray paint them with pepper spray, and probably hospitalize several of them.

In this type of situation cops fight dirty.



.

Lol it's not dirty, it's reasonable force. You're right though.
I will use any and all means available to me to stay off the ground.

Lets not take this thread as a "BJJ sucks!" Topic, because it doesn't. IMO it's great to have in your toolbox. I would recommend all police have a working knowledge in ground fighting, because you never know if you'll get taken to the ground with some dude trying to open up your skull. But I would Never go to the ground with someone by choice (by myself) as a police officer.

 

[Bayoupiper]

Lol it's not dirty, it's reasonable force. You're right though.
I will use any and all means available to me to stay off the ground.

Lets not take this thread as a "BJJ sucks!" Topic, because it doesn't. IMO it's great to have in your toolbox. I would recommend all police have a working knowledge in ground fighting, because you never know if you'll get taken to the ground with some dude trying to open up your skull. But I would Never go to the ground with someone by choice (by myself) as a police officer.

I thought that was what SSGT was all about.




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[Bayoupiper]

No offense intended, but IMO this is asinine and is not backed up by video evidence of officers being spontaneously attacked. Off the top of my head, the only example I can think of is the video of the officer being attacked by the EDP (with an umbrella or something, don't remember exactly) walking down the road while the officer was conducting an unrelated traffic stop. Anyway, you can easily include the use of inert spray, training batons, and blue guns into such a training scenario, and the results would be the same.

Defensive tactics curriculums typically teach about reactionary gap for this very reason. Furthermore, history has shown us that criminals intent on killing the officer and escaping at all costs will fight just as "dirty" as anyone else. My point is that there is a real danger of an officer being surprised with overwhelming physical force, grounded, and killed and that many officers are not specifically prepared for that scenario. Their defense against that is predicated on the assumption that they will be able to access and effectively deploy a weapon without it being controlled, taken away, or otherwise overcome by the assailant. There are numerous cases of dead officers that can teach us the danger in that assumption.





I totally agree with the first statement. I posted about how so much of BJJ just isn't really applicable to law enforcement in a directly practical way. For example, if an officer were to train two nights a week for two hours a night in a martial art, I would say by and large Judo or Sambo would be the most directly beneficial to police for a variety of reasons, providing a very powerful base on which police-specific training can be added.


Your example though is unrealistic IMO because it assumes a poor application of skills and illogical thought process on the part of the officer, as well as assuming a danger far outside of his immediate influence. For instance, the Mumia case is a famous example of a guy's buddy coming out of nowhere and murdering a solo officer, having nothing to do with stand up vs. ground. It's just a very bad situation regardless of any martial arts background at all. Regardless, having a basic level of ground survival skills would be extremely important for the officer in your setup, because a more likely scenario might be that the officer goes to cuff the suspect, and the suspect and his unseen friend spontaneously ground and attempt to murder the officer. Effective ground defense could save his life.

In any case, what you described is actually what officers do every day. Ground suspects in an attempt to subdue them and take them into custody. Ideally (and usually) officers are on the better side of the numbers, with two or more officers grounding and subduing one suspect. In those situations a strong grappling skillset could still be useful, but most officers would see it as a superfluous investment of their personal time.

I cannot agree with you.

You call it asinine, I call it real, on the street experience.


Your entire premise of taking on 10 police officers looks and sounds arrogant at best, but also naive, Knave.

Now we are on the same page when it comes to the fact that currently utilized LEO training systems are lacking, some woefully so.

But this truly is a "walk in my shoes" situation.
Until you are personally in these types of situations, you do not know how you will react.
And there are situations that no amount of training or preparation can account for.

I am most fortunate and blessed that in almost 28 years in law enforcement I was never put on the ground.
Not that people didn't try.
I had a myriad of items used as weapons against me.
I had all kinds of items thrown at me, some even scored.
I've fought with and arrested subjects with actual martial arts training and even more with Youtube/pay-per-view training.
I've even arrested said BJJ practitioners that did attempt to use their training.

As to your mentioned videos, any police officer, hell, any person that allows his awareness to be compromised is in danger.

But more specifically, the OP noted Gracie is teaching a BJJ course for officers.
And as has been said, there are other styles that work better in the law enforcement world.

Nobody ever said BJJ isn't a good style, but it is not the be-all, end-all some people think it is.



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[Knave]

Your entire premise of taking on 10 police officers looks and sounds arrogant at best, but also naive, Knave.

Wait, what?

I meant that if we gather 10 officers with no grappling experience, and gather 10 competitive grapplers to use as roleplayers, put them in a one on one scenario mimicking a law enforcement encounter that starts off interview-style (talking to someone on a call, a traffic stop, etc.) with the possibility that the roleplayer may spontaneously attack the officer with the intent to ground the officer and disarm or choke him, that in those scenarios my prediction is that the competitive grapplers will win a good 9 out of 10 before the officer can react to, and either end or escape the deadly force encounter. I make that prediction because similar things have been done before with those sorts of results, and my argument in favor of BJJ has been that compared to other grappling arts it very specifically and uniquely addresses the dangers of being grounded and how to defend, attack, and escape from there. Actually I think SSGT came about from that premise.

Technically, my original prediction was that the officers with zero ground training would lose 99% of the time against a competitive, skilled grappler of equal size and strength, but I condensed it to gathering 10 together because of the logistics in having 100 bodies gathered to run through a training scenario to test that out, if there was ever any interest in doing that.

 

[Dishonored]

Wait, what?

I meant that if we gather 10 officers with no grappling experience, and gather 10 competitive grapplers to use as roleplayers, put them in a one on one scenario mimicking a law enforcement encounter that starts off interview-style (talking to someone on a call, a traffic stop, etc.) with the possibility that the roleplayer may spontaneously attack the officer with the intent to ground the officer and disarm or choke him, that in those scenarios my prediction is that the competitive grapplers will win a good 9 out of 10 before the officer can react to, and either end or escape the deadly force encounter. I make that prediction because similar things have been done before with those sorts of results, and my argument in favor of BJJ has been that compared to other grappling arts it very specifically and uniquely addresses the dangers of being grounded and how to defend, attack, and escape from there. Actually I think SSGT came about from that premise.

Technically, my original prediction was that the officers with zero ground training would lose 99% of the time against a competitive, skilled grappler of equal size and strength, but I condensed it to gathering 10 together because of the logistics in having 100 bodies gathered to run through a training scenario to test that out, if there was ever any interest in doing that.

There is a flaw in your plan... You are assuming all/most officers have no experience at all with ground work. I give you that. Some don't. Hell most only shoot to qualify as they have to do that.
But then you talk about putting them up against a trained assailant. The card has to be played even both ways. Fewer than trained cops are street thugs with a BJJ background or any of that nature. Also you are forgetting a cop has a reason to fight and win. He has drive to make it back to his family. Background or not when it comes to life or death in gonna do things not allowed in that formal "scenario" you are talki g about setting up.

 

[Bayoupiper]

Wait, what?

I meant that if we gather 10 officers with no grappling experience, and gather 10 competitive grapplers to use as roleplayers, put them in a one on one scenario mimicking a law enforcement encounter that starts off interview-style (talking to someone on a call, a traffic stop, etc.) with the possibility that the roleplayer may spontaneously attack the officer with the intent to ground the officer and disarm or choke him, that in those scenarios my prediction is that the competitive grapplers will win a good 9 out of 10 before the officer can react to, and either end or escape the deadly force encounter. I make that prediction because similar things have been done before with those sorts of results, and my argument in favor of BJJ has been that compared to other grappling arts it very specifically and uniquely addresses the dangers of being grounded and how to defend, attack, and escape from there. Actually I think SSGT came about from that premise.

Technically, my original prediction was that the officers with zero ground training would lose 99% of the time against a competitive, skilled grappler of equal size and strength, but I condensed it to gathering 10 together because of the logistics in having 100 bodies gathered to run through a training scenario to test that out, if there was ever any interest in doing that.

I waste more puns that way.........



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[molonlabe]

Is there a good jj location in Prairieville? I've never done any martial arts in my life...


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[TerryK]

in my opinion it seems that most BJJ guys are too willing to go to the ground and that's the main flaw

 

[madwabbit]

Okay I'll loan some testicles to the conversation and say whats being implied.

If you think for a second that your skills in the air conditioned gym on your comfy mat will directly translate to taking down an officer on the street, you are delusional.

Until you've successfully endured a bjj "match" after being pepper sprayed and smacked with a maglite or baton a few times, you aren't comparing apples to apples.

Here's how I envision it going down: bjj guy threatens to get physical a few moments before a taser puts two holes in his affliction shirt being worn 2-sizes too small. After a few seconds of juice he gets the option of hands behind his back or another zap.

His bjj training might certainly help him once he's in jail though.

 

[bigtattoo79]

Okay I'll loan some testicles to the conversation and say whats being implied.

If you think for a second that your skills in the air conditioned gym on your comfy mat will directly translate to taking down an officer on the street, you are delusional.

Until you've successfully endured a bjj "match" after being pepper sprayed and smacked with a maglite or baton a few times, you aren't comparing apples to apples.

Here's how I envision it going down: bjj guy threatens to get physical a few moments before a taser puts two holes in his affliction shirt being worn 2-sizes too small. After a few seconds of juice he gets the option of hands behind his back or another zap.

His bjj training might certainly help him once he's in jail though.

+1

 

[enutees]

Is there a good jj location in Prairieville? I've never done any martial arts in my life...


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Not to get into the argument but Gracie United is in Prairieville. Instructor is a really good guy.

 

[molonlabe]

Not to get into the argument but Gracie United is in Prairieville. Instructor is a really good guy.

Do they accept complete and total noobs? I'm hoping to get more agile physically and learn some basics.

 

[AustinBR]

Do they accept complete and total noobs? I'm hoping to get more agile physically and learn some basics.

There are some places in Baton Rouge as well (your profile says you are from BR). I used to teach BJJ actually PM me if you have any questions!

 

[nola_]

A friends brother teaches BJJ. Has a gym in the New Orleans area but I don't know the website.

From what I understand he is quite experienced and has taught all around the world.

Myron Gaudet is his name.