help selecting a concealble 9mm handgun

[oleheat]

Well- That's a sure-fire way to end it!*






































*temporarily

 

[olivs260]

A swift cuff to the jaw followed by a shaking and pull yourself together woman!

Funny... my wife prefers a remarkably different treatment for her hysteria.

 

[Jack]

Funny... my wife prefers a remarkably different treatment for her hysteria.

That was the treatment I was alluding to.

 

[Hattrick 22]

The Beard does change the way you do things...

 

[DthunderUSA]

I have been researching all hollow point ammunition pretty heavily now for the last 6 months and I have found these to be the most damaging and consistent with my requirements for concealed carry and home defense. The rounds vary from one another. The Liberty Ammunition is based on a velocity induced wound channel. The Lehigh Defense is based more on a permanent wound channel (actual projectile cutting a path through tissue). I really like both but I carry the Lehigh Defense. They both penetrate right around 12 inches, which I like. I don't like over penetration when I am dealing with home defense. There are a ton of videos on youtube and a bunch of write ups on both.

As for the comment from dwr461 about "gimmick ammunitions", there is no gimmick to ballistics data. Lets look at an apples to apples comparison. I'll use the Lehigh Defense 9mm and the Barnes 45ACP because those are the most comparable. other 9mm rounds don't really compare.

The Lehigh Defense 9mm Maximum Expansion 105gr round: 1150 fps, expands to 0.82" and penetrates 12".

The 45 ACP Barnes 185 gr TAC-XP round: 1057 fps, expands to 0.80" and penetrates 14.5".

I agree that shot placement is very important. You hit the nail on that head when you said ammo needs to be reliable, feed properly, and penetrate sufficiently to hit vital organs. And that is why ammunition is so important. A gun don't work without ammo ie, the 50% comment. Shoot me a email if you want to chat more about it. I was just trying to help out Madjax.

Good luck again and I hope you are narrowing your search.

 

[Skiney]

I'll start by alienating almost everyone

Consider a double-action revolver. Operation is not complicated. I'll take a safe long trigger pull over a short dangerous trigger anyday. Unless you keep it cocked, an accidental discharge is highly unlikely. The hammer is visible, except for a few varieties. You can get a concealed or bobbed hammer, if you're worried about snagging your clothes. There are a plethora of gun sizes and grip options available. It's easy to check if it's loaded. The 5-6-7 round capacity is more than enough in most civilian real-life emergencies. 357 Magnum is a great choice that is more than adequate as a defense round and you would have the option to practice with 38 Special. 45 Colt, 41 mag and 44 mag are probably more than you want to handle, especially in a concealable-sized gun.

If you're interested, I could let you see and handle a variety of revolvers and autos.

At a boy Doc

You gottem They going to learn today:}

 

[Jack]

I have been researching all hollow point ammunition pretty heavily now for the last 6 months and I have found these to be the most damaging and consistent with my requirements for concealed carry and home defense. The rounds vary from one another. The Liberty Ammunition is based on a velocity induced wound channel. The Lehigh Defense is based more on a permanent wound channel (actual projectile cutting a path through tissue). I really like both but I carry the Lehigh Defense. They both penetrate right around 12 inches, which I like. I don't like over penetration when I am dealing with home defense. There are a ton of videos on youtube and a bunch of write ups on both.

As for the comment from dwr461 about "gimmick ammunitions", there is no gimmick to ballistics data. Lets look at an apples to apples comparison. I'll use the Lehigh Defense 9mm and the Barnes 45ACP because those are the most comparable. other 9mm rounds don't really compare.

The Lehigh Defense 9mm Maximum Expansion 105gr round: 1150 fps, expands to 0.82" and penetrates 12".

The 45 ACP Barnes 185 gr TAC-XP round: 1057 fps, expands to 0.80" and penetrates 14.5".

I agree that shot placement is very important. You hit the nail on that head when you said ammo needs to be reliable, feed properly, and penetrate sufficiently to hit vital organs. And that is why ammunition is so important. A gun don't work without ammo ie, the 50% comment. Shoot me a email if you want to chat more about it. I was just trying to help out Madjax.

Good luck again and I hope you are narrowing your search.

12" of water jugs or ballistics gel? Got a link? I looked on their website, they claim 12", but their test video shows 10" and the guy doing the demo says he gets 10-11.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I have been researching all hollow point ammunition pretty heavily now for the last 6 months and I have found these to be the most damaging and consistent with my requirements for concealed carry and home defense. The rounds vary from one another. The Liberty Ammunition is based on a velocity induced wound channel. The Lehigh Defense is based more on a permanent wound channel (actual projectile cutting a path through tissue). I really like both but I carry the Lehigh Defense. They both penetrate right around 12 inches, which I like. I don't like over penetration when I am dealing with home defense. There are a ton of videos on youtube and a bunch of write ups on both.

As for the comment from dwr461 about "gimmick ammunitions", there is no gimmick to ballistics data. Lets look at an apples to apples comparison. I'll use the Lehigh Defense 9mm and the Barnes 45ACP because those are the most comparable. other 9mm rounds don't really compare.

The Lehigh Defense 9mm Maximum Expansion 105gr round: 1150 fps, expands to 0.82" and penetrates 12".

The 45 ACP Barnes 185 gr TAC-XP round: 1057 fps, expands to 0.80" and penetrates 14.5".

I agree that shot placement is very important. You hit the nail on that head when you said ammo needs to be reliable, feed properly, and penetrate sufficiently to hit vital organs. And that is why ammunition is so important. A gun don't work without ammo ie, the 50% comment. Shoot me a email if you want to chat more about it. I was just trying to help out Madjax.

Good luck again and I hope you are narrowing your search.

Where is the independent verification of that data? Neither one of these companies have a reputable name in a highly competitive marketplace. I also don't think they are using any new proprietary tech that makes their bullets do wondrous things others won't. I don't buy their penetration claims on a 105gr JHP Bullet. I'm sure it expands huge but I don't but that depth of penetration. Ever notice that everybody uses bullet weights within a specific range? Wonder why that is? Lastly no pistol based ammo moves fast enough to generate a temporary wound cavity. Even in rifle bullets moving at much higher velocity Temporary Cavity has been debunked so many times it's considered irrelevant.

 

[Jack]

Where is the independent verification of that data? Neither one of these companies have a reputable name in a highly competitive marketplace. I also don't think they are using any new proprietary tech that makes their bullets do wondrous things others won't. I don't buy their penetration claims on a 105gr JHP Bullet. I'm sure it expands huge but I don't but that depth of penetration. Ever notice that everybody uses bullet weights within a specific range? Wonder why that is? Lastly no pistol based ammo moves fast enough to generate a temporary wound cavity. Even in rifle bullets moving at much higher velocity Temporary Cavity has been debunked so many times it's considered irrelevant.

I'm going to produce a machined tungsten bullet shaped like a tricone drill bit that splits into 3 pieces, creates a 4" wide hole, destroys water balloons, melons, and blocks of ice. I just need a way to spell OPERATOR with a related acronym, then I'll make millions.

 

[dwr461]

Where is the independent verification of that data? Neither one of these companies have a reputable name in a highly competitive marketplace. I also don't think they are using any new proprietary tech that makes their bullets do wondrous things others won't. I don't buy their penetration claims on a 105gr JHP Bullet. I'm sure it expands huge but I don't but that depth of penetration. Ever notice that everybody uses bullet weights within a specific range? Wonder why that is? Lastly no pistol based ammo moves fast enough to generate a temporary wound cavity. Even in rifle bullets moving at much higher velocity Temporary Cavity has been debunked so many times it's considered irrelevant.

I agree with VG.

I also pretty much ignore things shot into tactical jello and the "data"collected. All handgun bullets expand in jello but I rarely see an X-ray of someone I've brought in that show expanded hollow points. And even if they did the hole would have to be through something major to produce rapid exsanguination.

The way most of these snake oil salesmen market their super bullets is by using foot pounds which looks great. Wow velocity is squared look at the huge increase from a light, fast, round. The problem is that foot pounds indicates impact not penetration. The airbags from the steering wheel of a car most likely generate more foot pounds of impact than a modern duty sized handgun round. The impact from the airbag is spread out enough to prevent most serious injuries. Although I have seen a couple of fractured wrists from airbag deployments.

The formula that determines what happens after one body in motion strikes another is momentum. It is momentum = mass x velocity. So mass is just as important as velocity after a bullet penetrates your body. A bullet must carry enough momentum to be able to either smash bone, penetrate bone, or deflect off of a bone and continue traveling forward through soft tissues. Please notice that due to evolution or intelligent design, your choice, all the important stuff inside your body is pretty well protected by bones. The mass of the bullet is what keeps it traveling forward.

The reason modern JHP bullets are more effective the previous generation has little to do with the HP in my opinion and everything to with the copper jacket being bonded to the lead core. This prevents the jacket from separating and keeps the mass of the bullet higher thus leading to better penetration. I assume that it will not expand. Sometimes they do expand in people but just assume they won't. Humans are not regularly capable of shooting a bullet from a weapon that is light enough to be carried in holster comfortably all day but fire a bullet going fast enough to guaranty expansion, while having enough mass to guaranty penetration. Anyone who tells you different does not understand physics.

Dave



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jack]

Airbags have wayyyyyyy more force.

In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45 ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 INCHES (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.73 INCHES (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps)

 

[dwr461]

Thanks Jack I suspected it was more but was too lazy to go do the math.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[DthunderUSA]

Jack,

Most of the videos out there are showing 10 inch penetration or so in Gel. The handgun platforms being used for most of those tests are 4" or less. The 12" penetration I quoted was from their package. Not sure what platform they used for their testing but I am assuming it could have been a 5" barrel or so which could produce more velocity which would equal more penetration. To be honest though, I am okay with it being 10" as I don't want over penetration and I want the round to stay in the target.

This is a pretty good write-up with good explanation on the Lehigh Defense ammo in general. ( http://ballistics101.com/lehigh_defense_maximum_expansion_hollowpoints.php )
They did use water instead of gel, but the overall information is pretty consistent with what everyone else testing the ammo is saying in other posts.

I haven't come across anyone that has had anything negative to say about any of the testing. Everyone is all over the map when it comes to standardized testing so good luck finding exactly replicated data.

To address Vanilla Gorilla's quote: "Where is the independent verification of that data? Neither one of these companies have a reputable name in a highly competitive marketplace."

All of the references I have come across were independent verification, meaning, they weren't done by Lehigh Defense. I assume that's what you mean.

I know they have been a machining business for 20 years. They are new to manufacturing ammunition within the last few years, but have been making bullets for longer. I have shot a couple of boxes of these and have have had very consistent performance (no light strikes, or failures to feed).

Quote: "I'm sure it expands huge but I don't but that depth of penetration. Ever notice that everybody uses bullet weights within a specific range? Wonder why that is?"
Depth of penetration isn't magic, it is what it is. If you don't believe other's testing, then don't. I do notice why everyone uses bullet weights within a specific range, it's usually because of two reasons, (1) Ballistic testing has deemed that bullets made with lead and copper jackets of a specific diameter and weight perform consistently with consistent powder loads. (Ever wonder why there are 115 gr, 124 gr, and 147 gr 9mm loads?) the second (2) reason is large scale manufacturing. It is cheaper to mass produce rounds of a consistent size, shape and weight. Most of the large scale manufacturers would go broke if they made multiple grain weight bullets. A lot of times the components are outsourced and actually made by other companies, this includes bullets. Now to address why these bullets are so drastically different is because there is no lead in the bullet. Copper weighs less, but the size, shape, and volume are the same. It's like aluminum compared to steel, one just weighs more. The good news is that lighter rounds usually translate into higher velocity.

Quote: "Lastly no pistol based ammo moves fast enough to generate a temporary wound cavity. Even in rifle bullets moving at much higher velocity Temporary Cavity has been debunked so many times it's considered irrelevant.

Temporary wound cavities aren't the primary source of damage, it does happen however. There are some studies out there supporting that temporary cavities cause temporary nerve damage but again is not a primary source of damage.
A good read is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_effectiveness )
But since you brought up rifle bullets moving at a high velocity, I wanted to link a couple of nice little videos for you. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9cVl8xaegM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfPpJNvSRUQ )


And dwr461,
I'm not really sure where you are going with your reply.

You said that, quote: "The way most of these snake oil salesmen market their super bullets is by using foot pounds which looks great. " then you say something about airbags, which is irrelevant to what we are talking about, and then you say, quote: "The formula that determines what happens after one body in motion strikes another is momentum. It is momentum = mass x velocity. So mass is just as important as velocity after a bullet penetrates your body. A bullet must carry enough momentum to be able to either smash bone, penetrate bone, or deflect off of a bone and continue traveling forward through soft tissues."

Technically, your formula is correct, but it is not a good metric to measure initial penetration, that is why energy is used as the industry standard measurement. What momentum can't take into account is the targets mass or speed. Is it a skinny guy with no muscle, or is it body builder with dense muscle tissue, or did you penetrate the skin and immediately hit bone. The point is, there are too many variables to speculate on momentum. Energy is a very consistent way to measure the initial impact every time. But that's about all you can get out of it, because the variables are too many after that. And this goes back to your statement about shot placement being important. The "tactical jello and the data collected" you describe is a way of measuring ammunition on an equal scale. You need to have a base line to consistently compare things. That is why everyone references the FBI ammunition protocol, because it's a standard that has been established for LE. You can either agree with it or not, I'm just saying it exists because a government agency didn't want their employees carrying a bunch of ammo that doesn't work, at a minimum standard. I personally don't have the same metrics as the FBI because I don't want my rounds to over penetrate. I want them to dump ALL of their energy into the target and stay there. So, it's not a good metric for me, but for others maybe it is.

Enjoy the videos. Post some of your favorite information or videos so I can understand where you are getting your information from. I am always interested in learning something new. Thanks for the mental gymnastics. I look forward to hearing more.

 

[Jack]

Jack,

Most of the videos out there are showing 10 inch penetration or so in Gel. The handgun platforms being used for most of those tests are 4" or less. The 12" penetration I quoted was from their package. Not sure what platform they used for their testing but I am assuming it could have been a 5" barrel or so which could produce more velocity which would equal more penetration. To be honest though, I am okay with it being 10" as I don't want over penetration and I want the round to stay in the target.

An in inch longer barrel wouldn't give enough velocity to give another 2" of penetration. I'm raising the BS flag on that one. In fact, all the videos I've seen have shown people getting HIGHER velocities than lehigh says they got, with LESS penetration. People who say they don't want over penetration are woefully ignorant. Nothing that will be stopped by Sheetrock is an effective handgun round. #7 bird shot goes through Sheetrock. As far as keeping the round in the target to maximize energy transfer, that has been shown to be pointless. The total energy of the round is peanuts(see my earlier post about weights). It is very simple science

This is a pretty good write-up with good explanation on the Lehigh Defense ammo in general. ( http://ballistics101.com/lehigh_defense_maximum_expansion_hollowpoints.php )
They did use water instead of gel, but the overall information is pretty consistent with what everyone else testing the ammo is saying in other posts.

You know they say their penetration would equal 9-10" of gel for 9mm and much less in 45, right?

I haven't come across anyone that has had anything negative to say about any of the testing. Everyone is all over the map when it comes to standardized testing so good luck finding exactly replicated data.

That is why it is snake oil ammo. They claim to hit exactly the minimum penetration reccomended by the FBI, then NEVER prove it. Even in their own demo videos it doesn't happen. Can you show me ONE video of it making 12" in ballistics gel? I can show you quite a few of it not

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Whenu say idependently verified I mean by labs, like JP White, The FBI, RCMP, like actual scientific testing.

 

[JBP55]

I have been researching all hollow point ammunition pretty heavily now for the last 6 months and I have found these to be the most damaging and consistent with my requirements for concealed carry and home defense. The rounds vary from one another. The Liberty Ammunition is based on a velocity induced wound channel. The Lehigh Defense is based more on a permanent wound channel (actual projectile cutting a path through tissue). I really like both but I carry the Lehigh Defense. They both penetrate right around 12 inches, which I like. I don't like over penetration when I am dealing with home defense. There are a ton of videos on youtube and a bunch of write ups on both.

As for the comment from dwr461 about "gimmick ammunitions", there is no gimmick to ballistics data. Lets look at an apples to apples comparison. I'll use the Lehigh Defense 9mm and the Barnes 45ACP because those are the most comparable. other 9mm rounds don't really compare.

The Lehigh Defense 9mm Maximum Expansion 105gr round: 1150 fps, expands to 0.82" and penetrates 12".

The 45 ACP Barnes 185 gr TAC-XP round: 1057 fps, expands to 0.80" and penetrates 14.5".

I agree that shot placement is very important. You hit the nail on that head when you said ammo needs to be reliable, feed properly, and penetrate sufficiently to hit vital organs. And that is why ammunition is so important. A gun don't work without ammo ie, the 50% comment. Shoot me a email if you want to chat more about it. I was just trying to help out Madjax.

Good luck again and I hope you are narrowing your search.

How did this list of proven quality 9mm defensive ammunition compare to your new wonder round in the FBI Test?

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr
Federal Tactical 124 gr
Federal HST 124 gr +P
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P
Federal HST 147 gr
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr
Winchester 147 gr bonded

 

[Jack]

It is momentum = mass x velocity. So mass is just as important as velocity after a bullet penetrates your body. A bullet must carry enough momentum to be able to either smash bone, penetrate bone, or deflect off of a bone and continue traveling forward through soft tissues.

Technically, your formula is correct, but it is not a good metric to measure initial penetration, that is why energy is used as the industry standard measurement.

You know how to calculate energy right.............

What momentum can't take into account is the targets mass or speed. Is it a skinny guy with no muscle, or is it body builder with dense muscle tissue, or did you penetrate the skin and immediately hit bone. The point is, there are too many variables to speculate on momentum. Energy is a very consistent way to measure the initial impact every time.

I don't expect you to understand this link, but hope that you do.

http://physics.ucsc.edu/~josh/6A/book/momentum/node3.html

But that's about all you can get out of it, because the variables are too many after that. And this goes back to your statement about shot placement being important. The "tactical jello and the data collected" you describe is a way of measuring ammunition on an equal scale. You need to have a base line to consistently compare things. That is why everyone references the FBI ammunition protocol, because it's a standard that has been established for LE. You can either agree with it or not, I'm just saying it exists because a government agency didn't want their employees carrying a bunch of ammo that doesn't work, at a minimum standard.

And this ammo does not meet the MINIMUM standard on video anywhere.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Water jug testing = instantly discredited

 

[HiCapMag]

It has been a long hard week, but I got to sit in my big chair this morning, drink coffee and read this thread.... I thank you all for the entertainment.

To the OP.... Glock 19... I'm not even touching the SuperBullet topic.
Be safe

 

[trout25red]

Take my opinion with a grain of salt because I am not a soldier, LEO, operator, etc. My favorite pistol that I own is a Ruger SR9C. Glock is the standard for reliability, but here are the reasons why I strayed:
-The Ruger SR9C is very similar to a 1911. People say that grip angle doesn't make a difference. That is not true if you are used to a certain angle. I point a 1911 naturally. The SR9C has the same angle. This means that I am already pointing in the right direction even before my eyes see the sights.

-The Ruger has the same style of thumb safety. Coming from a 1911, this felt very natural. I don't feel comfortable without a safety.

-It has a loaded chamber indicator. It is nice to KNOW the status of the pistol without having to bump check.

-The size is between a 19 and 26, and it comes with 10 round mag that fits flush and a full size 17 round mag with a grip extension. This means that you can use one for carry and one for the home, car, etc. (I know that Glocks can also use mags from larger Glocks of the same caliber)

-The reviews on reliability are great. I have shot about 500 rounds of various 9mm without one issue. I know this is no major milestone, but I trust that it will fire the next time that I pull trigger.

-The trigger is superior, according to expert reviews, to Glocks, M&P, and Springfield. I can't attest to that because of my lack of experience, but it is a nice crisp trigger.

I don't think you can go wrong, just personal preference. All things can become natural and second nature with practice. I am just satisfied with my decision, and I haven't had any friends shoot it that don't like it.