Need Help W/ Torque Wrench, Please

[SpeedRacer]

Have it calibrated a split second before you use it also,,,, TO BE DEAD ON BALLS ACCURATE,,,, its an industry term.

My first thought when reading this thread was My Cousin Vinny too.

 

[Ritten]

Me thinks you're overthinking this.

+1

Waaaay over.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

 

[general mills]

That said, I think I need a 1/2" to interface with my flash-hider wrench. An adapter should work, shouldn't it, or will this create more leverage and apply more tq than the wrench is reading? Sorry, but this aspect of math is NOT my strong point.

?

An adapter will not change the torque, neither will a normal extension. basically, if it doesn't make the torqueing arm longer or shorter, it won't affect the torque. A standard extension on a socket, used to make the reach deeper, will not affect the value. A crows foot, which now extends where contact with the fastener is made and lengthens the torque arm, will change the torque value, unless it is applied 90 degrees to the point where torque is intended to be applied. Does this make sense? It's hard to describe, easier to show. Using a crows foot at a 90 or L to the wrench, will not affect the torque value. Anything other angle will.

 

[general mills]

ok, I googled an image of a standard flash hider wrench, and to get exact torque, you would need to use it 90 degrees to the wench. The adapter will not matter, but the fact that the wench will extend the length of the torque arm, it will need to be 90 to the torque arm.

Think of the whole thing like a lever, as the laws of leverage apply.

 

[JWG223]

Minimum spec is 20#. At roughly 25#, muzzle deformation occurs. I'm not sure why wanting to hit that window rubs people the wrong way, but I suspect it's the same reason that hobby guns are still treated "just as good as" work tools because they have similar parts-lists, yet we have buffer-tubes unscrewing and at least 1 M4's muzzle brake backed off during a VTAC course I attended. Luckily there was no suppressor on it.

Specifications. They exist for a reason and why bother buying quality **** if you ignore assembly?

 

[JWG223]

An adapter will not change the torque, neither will a normal extension. basically, if it doesn't make the torqueing arm longer or shorter, it won't affect the torque. A standard extension on a socket, used to make the reach deeper, will not affect the value. A crows foot, which now extends where contact with the fastener is made and lengthens the torque arm, will change the torque value, unless it is applied 90 degrees to the point where torque is intended to be applied. Does this make sense? It's hard to describe, easier to show. Using a crows foot at a 90 or L to the wrench, will not affect the torque value. Anything other angle will.

So if I use the wrench in such a way as to place the point of contact with the muzzle device the same distance from my hand as if it were attached to the head of the tq wrench, it will not matter, but if the device "extends" the wrench, torque will be more, and if somehow it subtracts, it will be less?

 

[JR1572]

I then contacted Wes of MSTN

That's who built my upper. It's been flawless.

JR1572

 

[JWG223]

That's who built my upper. It's been flawless.

JR1572

Yep, him and Garin Lee have been my go-to's on this muzzle-device install. I just needed some knowledge on tq wrench procurement and application, and I thank all who provided! Garin offered to ask Barry Dueck to install it for me, but I want to learn to do things correctly, by the book, for myself.

 

[JCcypress]

Boy do I feel like a jack-ass.

My method for changing the muzzle device was to hold the rifle between my legs and use a crescent wrench to on/off the device - "eyeballing" it. Hasn't failed me yet!

Meanwhile, the torque wrench I bought a year or two ago is still in the original package.

 

[JWG223]

To each their own. I prefer to follow Surefire's and MSTN's methods when suppressors are at stake.

 

[JR1572]

To each their own. I prefer to follow Surefire's and MSTN's methods when suppressors are at stake.

I would just send my upper back to MSTN. Other than optics and the buis, nothing has been changed on my upper in 5 years. My boring HALO works just fine on that panache lacking a2 flash hider.

JR1572

 

[SpeedRacer]

I agree with doing things right. I just think buying a $200+ torque wrench to use once is silly.

Buy/borrow/steal *whatever* torque wrench. Apply Rocksett. Screw on muzzle device. Torque to 23ft/lb. Even if the wrench is off +/- 2lb you'll be in spec. You could've properly installed 400 muzzle devices in the time you've spent researching it. It should be done right, but it's not rocket science.

 

[JCcypress]

To each their own. I prefer to follow Surefire's and MSTN's methods when suppressors are at stake.

Ain't nuttin' wrong wit dat.

 

[general mills]

So if I use the wrench in such a way as to place the point of contact with the muzzle device the same distance from my hand as if it were attached to the head of the tq wrench, it will not matter, but if the device "extends" the wrench, torque will be more, and if somehow it subtracts, it will be less?

bingo.

if the point of contact is the same distance on the horizontal plane form your hand (L shape), you have not changes the length of the lever and the torque is the same. If the short part of the L moves out or in, you have now increased or decreased the overall length of the lever, and your torque value has changed.

If you want to torque something properly, it is important to understand this, and from the looks of what I saw your tool looks like, this could be a factor. I am an airline mechanic, and if an faa agent saw me using a 12 inch torque wrench to apply 50 ft. lbs of torque set at 50 foot lbs with a 6 inch extension on the end of the wrench he would take my license. I would now be applying 75 ft. lbs of torque to the fastener. My wrench would need to be set at 33.3 Ft. Lbs. to apply 50 ft lbs at the fastener, or I could rotate the extension 90 degrees, making the torque arm 12 inches

Using a crecent wrench may work, but there is nothing wrong with doing a job correctly rather than short cutting it. If the instructions say apply x amount of torque, you can't go wrong by doing that. You can damage something by using a crecent wrench.

In short, I've never had to do a job twice that I did right the first time.

 

[SpeedRacer]

bingo.

if the point of contact is the same distance on the horizontal plane form your hand (L shape), you have not changes the length of the lever and the torque is the same. If the short part of the L moves out or in, you have now increased or decreased the overall length of the lever, and your torque value has changed.

If you want to torque something properly, it is important to understand this, and from the looks of what I saw your tool looks like, this could be a factor. I am an airline mechanic, and if an faa agent saw me using a 12 inch torque wrench to apply 50 ft. lbs of torque set at 50 foot lbs with a 6 inch extension on the end of the wrench, I would now be applying 75 ft. lbs of torque to the fastener. My wrench would need to be set at 33.3 Ft. Lbs. to apply 50 ft lbs at the fastener, or I could rotate the extension 90 degrees, making the torque arm 12 inches

If you keep up that kinda talk, JWG is gonna try to make out with you.

 

[JR1572]

If you keep up that kinda talk, JWG is gonna try to make out with you.

Make out with him? No way. He'll dig a hole in his basement and keep him down there. Then we'll have lotion, a basket, a hose, and a great musical number by Q-Lazarus...

JR1572

 

[Crimson]

So if I use the wrench in such a way as to place the point of contact with the muzzle device the same distance from my hand as if it were attached to the head of the tq wrench, it will not matter, but if the device "extends" the wrench, torque will be more, and if somehow it subtracts, it will be less?

That is correct the torque is calculated at the head of the wrench if the head of the wrench is extended with the socket you use, making the handle longer, the torque applied would be more than what the wrench is set to, if the socket you use is behind the head of the wrench then the torque applied would be less than what the wrench is set to.

without a picture this is the best way to explain.

s=socket
h=head of the wrench

a) s--h--------------handle you will apply more torque than the wrench is set for in this configuration
b) h--s------------handle you will apply less torque than the wrench is set for in this configuration
c) (sh)-------------handle you will apply the torque the wrench is set to in this configuration unless using a long extension to the socket


the only way configuration a and b would come into play is if you are using a crowsfoot type socket, that can extend or shorten the length of the torque wrench from the head of the wrench


if you are using a regular socket that does not extend or shorten the length of the torque wrench then configuration c would apply.

 

[mpl006]

That is correct the torque is calculated at the head of the wrench if the head of the wrench is extended with the socket you use, making the handle longer, the torque applied would be more than what the wrench is set to, if the socket you use is behind the head of the wrench then the torque applied would be less than what the wrench is set to.

without a picture this is the best way to explain.

s=socket
h=head of the wrench

a) s--h--------------handle you will apply more torque than the wrench is set for in this configuration
b) h--s------------handle you will apply less torque than the wrench is set for in this configuration
c) (sh)-------------handle you will apply the torque the wrench is set to in this configuration unless using a long extension to the socket


the only way configuration a and b would come into play is if you are using a crowsfoot type socket, that can extend or shorten the length of the torque wrench from the head of the wrench


if you are using a regular socket that does not extend or shorten the length of the torque wrench then configuration c would apply.

I need help with this. Other than the possibility of causing the head of the torque wrench to tilt one way or the other, I don't see how making the horizontal distance from the torque wrench to the flash hider or nut or whatever in my "diagram" below longer or shorter would change the torque.


ll]<------>[]
ll
ll
ll
ll
ll

That is the distance I am referring to. I understand that the lengthening of the moment arm with change the torque but I'm missing the other distance being a factor. Not saying it's wrong, just looking to make sure I'm not missing something.

 

[Crimson]

I need help with this. Other than the possibility of causing the head of the torque wrench to tilt one way or the other, I don't see how making the horizontal distance from the torque wrench to the flash hider or nut or whatever in my "diagram" below longer or shorter would change the torque.

<------>
ll] []
ll
ll
ll
ll
ll

That is the distance I am referring to. I understand that the lengthening of the moment arm with change the torque but I'm missing the other distance being a factor. Not saying it's wrong, just looking to make sure I'm not missing something.

I'm not quite sure I follow what your asking.

the play in the extension is the main factor, by a long extension I mean 16-18 inches, for the normal application with a 4-6 inch extension nothing really changes.

Is that what your referring to?

 

[mpl006]

That's what I was talking about. I fixed my "diagram" to maybe make more sense. The thing on the left is the wrench and the thing on the right is a nut. I couldn't understand how increase the distance between the arrows would change the torque except for the play in everything not being rigid. Just making sure I wasn't missing something.