Private sale of handgun

[Jmfox3]

I would add back 10 to 15 years many FFLs did not want to be in the middle of a sale that they were not a party to even though it was the same law. Toady it relatively cheap and easy to do firearm transfer. Good luck.

 

[JoeLiberty]

I'm obviously not going to change your opinion on this, but by making this statement, you are saying a seller should either check or not check the buyer's residency, whatever they feel like doing. Because there is a federal law saying only in-state resident transfers are allowed, your statement equates to don't be a criminal or do be a criminal, whatever you feel like doing. It's flawed logic and bad advice.

That's not correct, and a total misrepresentation of what he's saying. It's not required by law to keep a record of a sale, nor to ask for ID, in a transfer. It is only illegal to transfer to any person "the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe resides in State other than that in which the transferor resides." (GCA '68) If the buyer gives you no reason to believe they don't live here, it's legal. Period. If he gives you any indication he's not from here, it's illegal. If you sold a gun to a Texan who told you he was from LA and you believed him, that's not illegal (on your end) per the letter of the law. What they buyer did is illegal, but the seller should be fine.

Checking ID's or doing a bill of sale are still good plans to help you stay on the right side of this line, but in no way are they required. And each person may decide for themselves whether to ask for ID, or make a copy of the ID, or to do a bill of sale, or to ask if they are a resident, or not to ask at all, or to only sell to Louisiana CHP holders, or to pay an FFL to NICS check your buyer. All of those are legal options. Based on what YOU are comfortable with. To each their own.

So before you go slandering this man and accusing him of advocating illegal activity, get your facts straight.

 

[Magdump]

Cavalier attitudes like that are what cause problems for the rest of us who follow the rules (in this case) for private firearms transactions, which are a privilege, not a right..

Please explain how ownership and private sale are a “privilege” and not a God given right supported by the constitution.

There are a lot of things left out of this discussion. Knowingly selling any item to someone who is prohibited by federal law from purchasing the item would have to be proven in a court of law.
Even if a seller asked for ID, the buyer might produce any form of ID that has been falsified. BUT, there are no laws stating that you have to keep a record of the transaction or verify any facts before the sale. There is zero burden of proof placed on the seller if he made the sale in good faith. Can or might the ATF bust down the seller’s door and carry him away? Of course they may. Law enforcers will do whatever they see fit. Doesn’t mean that they will win the case and not lose the lawsuit following.

 

[krotsman]

That's not correct, and a total misrepresentation of what he's saying. It's not required by law to keep a record of a sale, nor to ask for ID, in a transfer. It is only illegal to transfer to any person "the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe resides in State other than that in which the transferor resides." (GCA '68) If the buyer gives you no reason to believe they don't live here, it's legal. Period. If he gives you any indication he's not from here, it's illegal. If you sold a gun to a Texan who told you he was from LA and you believed him, that's not illegal (on your end) per the letter of the law. What they buyer did is illegal, but the seller should be fine.

Checking ID's or doing a bill of sale are still good plans to help you stay on the right side of this line, but in no way are they required. And each person may decide for themselves whether to ask for ID, or make a copy of the ID, or to do a bill of sale, or to ask if they are a resident, or not to ask at all, or to only sell to Louisiana CHP holders, or to pay an FFL to NICS check your buyer. All of those are legal options. Based on what YOU are comfortable with. To each their own.

So before you go slandering this man and accusing him of advocating illegal activity, get your facts straight.

First off, I believe you are referring to libel, not slander, and I am doing neither. We are discussing what is opinion and what is law.

Every bit of information on the ATF site states that federal law prohibits the the personal transfer of weapons to an non-state resident. There is no discretion mentioned. There is discretion mentioned for your personal determination of whether they are a prohibited person or not. Bottom line is that under normal day-to-day circumstances, nobody (ATF) cares, until they do.... Then, have fun explaining why you sold that AR used in a mass shooting to a MS resident.

From ATF website - To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. A person considering transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions.

2. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual
who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully
transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then
receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background
check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception from this
prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for
example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is
provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by
intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who
inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).

 

[krotsman]

Please explain how ownership and private sale are a *privilege* and not a God given right supported by the constitution.

There are a lot of things left out of this discussion. Knowingly selling any item to someone who is prohibited by federal law from purchasing the item would have to be proven in a court of law.
Even if a seller asked for ID, the buyer might produce any form of ID that has been falsified. BUT, there are no laws stating that you have to keep a record of the transaction or verify any facts before the sale. There is zero burden of proof placed on the seller if he made the sale in good faith. Can or might the ATF bust down the seller’s door and carry him away? Of course they may. Law enforcers will do whatever they see fit. Doesn’t mean that they will win the case and not lose the lawsuit following.

I may be wrong, but I do not believe the 2nd amendment says anything about protecting private transfers of weapons. I bet laws forcing all private transfers to go through an FFL would pass, even in LA. Especially if the media shows that private sellers are rampantly playing it loose and easy with their sales.

We are not talking about determining who is prohibited. As a civilian, you cannot know that. We are talking about determining residency. You don't have to keep a record of the transfer, but not asking about residency is not due diligence. Asking to see an LA license is something you can easily do and then claim you did your due diligence. If it was a fake ID, it's back on the buyer. It's more about CYA than anything else.

 

[Evilsvt1]

I just spoke to the ATF office in Louisiana. It IS LEGAL to sell a handgun to an out of state resident, and recommends a bill of sale with the following: serial number of weapon, Id number and issuing state and the date of release to the buyer with signatures. The law states The buyer has to be over 21, no felonies or misdemeanor domestic abuse/violence charges. It is the buyers responsibility to abide by his/her resident states laws. Did not ask about shipping either. So there you have the law. Your comfort level will vary.

 

[Magdump]

I may be wrong, but I do not believe the 2nd amendment says anything about protecting private transfers of weapons. I bet laws forcing all private transfers to go through an FFL would pass, even in LA. Especially if the media shows that private sellers are rampantly playing it loose and easy with their sales.

We are not talking about determining who is prohibited. As a civilian, you cannot know that. We are talking about determining residency. You don't have to keep a record of the transfer, but not asking about residency is not due diligence. Asking to see an LA license is something you can easily do and then claim you did your due diligence. If it was a fake ID, it's back on the buyer. It's more about CYA than anything else.

The constitution...includes a lot more than simply the 2nd amendment. I simply stated *the constitution*. It was you who read 2nd amendment. Many folks nowadays read other than what is meant and before you know it, they follow laws that aren’t there. Those people have been conditioned. They are trained. Much like sheep.
I sold the firearm to the man. I asked all the right questions. I believed what he told me. He gave me no reason to believe otherwise.
The most outlandish statement I keep reading here is how this (imaginary) weapon is so destined to be used in a mass shooting, homicide, robbery.... more media hypnosis leaving a mark on the sheep.

 

[JoeLiberty]

First off, I believe you are referring to libel, not slander, and I am doing neither. We are discussing what is opinion and what is law.

Every bit of information on the ATF site states that federal law prohibits the the personal transfer of weapons to an non-state resident. There is no discretion mentioned. There is discretion mentioned for your personal determination of whether they are a prohibited person or not. Bottom line is that under normal day-to-day circumstances, nobody (ATF) cares, until they do.... Then, have fun explaining why you sold that AR used in a mass shooting to a MS resident.

From ATF website - To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her State, provided the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. There may be State laws that regulate intrastate firearm transactions. A person considering transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local restrictions.

2. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual
who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully
transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a
Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then
receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background
check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html. The GCA provides an exception from this
prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for
example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is
provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by
intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who
inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).

Are you going to refute any bit of what I said? This confirms my point. If you don't know or have reasonable cause to believe they can't buy your gun, you are fine. The buyer may or may not be breaking the law, but as long as you have no reason to suspect otherwise, you can sell that gun. It's fine. Legally. Morally, if you think you should ask for an ID or proof of residence, perhaps you should. But it's not required.

And you are quoting the ATF, who is attempting to explain the law in simpler terms,and who is notoriously bad at interpreting it. I quoted the actual law (GCA '68), which in no uncertain terms DOES permit your reasonable discretion on whether you think they live here. I can't help you any more than that. Talk to a lawyer if you are still unsure.

 

[JoeLiberty]

I just spoke to the ATF office in Louisiana. It IS LEGAL to sell a handgun to an out of state resident, and recommends a bill of sale with the following: serial number of weapon, Id number and issuing state and the date of release to the buyer with signatures. The law states The buyer has to be over 21, no felonies or misdemeanor domestic abuse/violence charges. It is the buyers responsibility to abide by his/her resident states laws. Did not ask about shipping either. So there you have the law. Your comfort level will vary.

Sweet jeebus.

- - - Updated - - -

I may be wrong, but I do not believe the 2nd amendment says anything about protecting private transfers of weapons. I bet laws forcing all private transfers to go through an FFL would pass, even in LA. Especially if the media shows that private sellers are rampantly playing it loose and easy with their sales.

We are not talking about determining who is prohibited. As a civilian, you cannot know that. We are talking about determining residency. You don't have to keep a record of the transfer, but not asking about residency is not due diligence. Asking to see an LA license is something you can easily do and then claim you did your due diligence. If it was a fake ID, it's back on the buyer. It's more about CYA than anything else.

It IS a very good way to CYA. No debate about that.

 

[AustinBR]

I just spoke to the ATF office in Louisiana. It IS LEGAL to sell a handgun to an out of state resident, and recommends a bill of sale with the following: serial number of weapon, Id number and issuing state and the date of release to the buyer with signatures. The law states The buyer has to be over 21, no felonies or misdemeanor domestic abuse/violence charges. It is the buyers responsibility to abide by his/her resident states laws. Did not ask about shipping either. So there you have the law. Your comfort level will vary.

Someone @ the ATF doesn't know what they are talking about. It is legal to sell to someone out of state, but it must go through a FFL. You cannot do a private sale to someone who resides in another state.

 

[Sulzer]

I'm obviously not going to change your opinion on this, but by making this statement, you are saying a seller should either check or not check the buyer's residency, whatever they feel like doing. Because there is a federal law saying only in-state resident transfers are allowed, your statement equates to don't be a criminal or do be a criminal, whatever you feel like doing. It's flawed logic and bad advice.

Here is an ATF "Best Practices: Transfers of Firearms by Private Sellers" document from January 2013. While it does reccommend checking the other person's ID to confirm their residency, it also states that it is not a requirement to do so. It is a PDF download, not a web link: https://www.atf.gov/file/58681/download> Mr. Foot is not wrong if he just wants to do the legal minimum. At the same time, Krots, you are not wrong for wanting to do a little extra to try to CYA more from federal and civil suits. To each their own.

 

[Blue Diamond]

Someone @ the ATF doesn't know what they are talking about. It is legal to sell to someone out of state, but it must go through a FFL. You cannot do a private sale to someone who resides in another state.

You may be mixing federal law with state law. The ATF works with federal laws which are more lenient than state laws.

 

[JoeLiberty]

Someone @ the ATF doesn't know what they are talking about. It is legal to sell to someone out of state, but it must go through a FFL. You cannot do a private sale to someone who resides in another state.

If I'm not mistaken, for handguns, it must go through an FFL in the state in which the Buyer resides.

 

[Sulzer]

If I'm not mistaken, for handguns, it must go through an FFL in the state in which the Buyer resides.

For individual to individual sales, all firearms, excluding antiques, must go through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence if the buyer and seller reside in different states.

 

[JBP55]

For individual to individual sales, all firearms, excluding antiques, must go through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence if the buyer and seller reside in different states.

And it is not uncommon for The Alphabet Agencies and their Friends to be at Gun Shows and on Firearm Forums.

 

[STPHomie]

If I'm not mistaken, for handguns, it must go through an FFL in the state in which the Buyer resides.

What if you drive there and the sale takes place in the buyer's state?

 

[Robbie]

Headache reading all the replies.
Hand Gun - 18 years old, LA resident for private sale.
Hand Gun - 21 years old, LA resident picking up from FFL. Active duty Military must provide papers showing LA.

 

[JoeLiberty]

What if you drive there and the sale takes place in the buyer's state?

If you want to sell to someone who lives in another state, that may be one way to do it. You drive to their state, go to the FFL, and do the transfer. Depending on the state.

 

[Troedoff]

And it is not uncommon for The Alphabet Agencies and their Friends to be at Gun Shows and on Firearm Forums.

This is true, but they have to do or say something to make it illegal, and you continue with the sale for you to be arrested and charged. In most cases they will say they are a criminal in small talk, or mention that they are from another state. Under those circumstances you are committing a crime. If you don't ask, and they don't say anything to make you think otherwise then it is a go. I do not typically ask or get ID personally before I sell a firearm to another individual. Not that I have anything for or against it. If I buy a firearm from another individual and they want to do a bill of sale, I am indifferent to that personally. Personally I do not go through those motions, because it is not written that I have to. Best practice, and CYA is all good, and I understand that.

Quite honestly I can manufacture, and make non serialized Glocks, 1911's, and AR's all day long legally as long as they stay mine, and never have to pass one background check to purchases any of the "components" online. Why hasn't anyone given rise to the fact that it may be appealing to the criminal to purchases 80% parts, and just build their own non serialized fully, reliably functioning firearms. Since we are so worried about criminals getting their hands on guns?

 

[STPHomie]

If you want to sell to someone who lives in another state, that may be one way to do it. You drive to their state, go to the FFL, and do the transfer. Depending on the state.

FFL schmeffeffel.