rjf ar15

[JNieman]

You recommended PSA Uppers. Are you familiar with their QA/QC? Do you realize they don't manufacturer barrels? Did you know they sell barrels FN has deemed as seconds? Seems like a lot of cracks. No everyone who doesn't check headspacing isn't wrong. But if you buy from DD/Colt/BCM et al. you at least know it was checked a couple times before it left the factory.

Yea, like I said, my upper parts have been Daniel Defense. I like them. I linked to Palmetto State because I know a lot of people who've built off their stuff and never heard one issue, so it was a convenient site to link to price comparisons. I've heard nothing but good things about FN's barrels but have never heard anything about PSA using "seconds" though.

Yes. It is dangerous and could be out of spec.

Wow, talk about overkill. Do you also pull bullets on every cartridge they buy to check for double charges or proper powder loads? It's called calculated risks, and buying reputable products.

 

[aard3]

Vendors with a good QC/QA process are no more likely to put out a **** rifle than they are to put out a **** barrel with barrel extension. Are you telling me that everyone who's ever bought a rifle and immediately gone out to shoot it without having the headspace checked is doing something wrong?

I was specifically talking about you saying that if you BUILT your own AR, you didn't need to verify headspace, not a manufactured rifle... so nice try trying to change the argument.

And to answer the question, YES, if someone builds a rifle they should verify headspace, and YES, I think someone should verify headspace on a new rifle... but If someone wants to put their blind faith in PSA to have correctly head spaced the rifle, well that's their prerogative.

 

[JNieman]

I was specifically talking about you saying that if you BUILT your own AR, you didn't need to verify headspace, not a manufactured rifle... so nice try trying to change the argument.

And to answer the question, YES, if someone builds a rifle they should verify headspace, and YES, I think someone should verify headspace on a new rifle... but If someone wants to put their blind faith in PSA to have correctly head spaced the rifle, well that's their prerogative.

If you're buying an AR15 barrel that has the barrel extension factory installed, and buy a properly in-spec bolt, then you're no more in danger from a headspace issue than if you bought a complete AR15 rifle. This is because of the AR15 design. That's why it's rare to see people build their own Remington 700 but anyone and their mom could really buy AR15 parts, and if they buy good parts, and follow the proper assembly procedure (which is easy to follow and available in myriad places) it's going to be just fine for 99% of shooters.

 

[aard3]

If you're buying an AR15 barrel that has the barrel extension factory installed, and buy a properly in-spec bolt, then you're no more in danger from a headspace issue than if you bought a complete AR15 rifle. This is because of the AR15 design. That's why it's rare to see people build their own Remington 700 but anyone and their mom could really buy AR15 parts, and if they buy good parts, and follow the proper assembly procedure (which is easy to follow and available in myriad places) it's going to be just fine for 99% of shooters.

How do you know you are buying an in spec barrel and bolt? You are putting blind faith in the manufacturer(s), if you want to take that chance, then go ahead, but don't spread mis-information. I guarantee you than any reputable manufacturer of AR15's verifies headspace after assembly... there is a reason for it.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Stuff happens. Defective items leave every factory.

I would never use a home build for duty use.

I don't have time to build a Franken-gun and play at the range. I'll stick to my issued Colt.

Let me guess, you would rather an AK?

JR1572

Jim Fuller's FAL's and AK's started off as off as home builds... So did Clark custom 1911's...

If you don't want to.. Fine.

I know that I knew less about AK's and FAL's before I tore a few down and put em back together...

NOW... I'm MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE depending on them, and troubleshooting and fixing them.


As to if I'd like an AK better... It depends.

Shooting prairie dogs at a couple hundred yards... I'll take an AR

reaching out to 500 on man sized targets... I'll take one of my FAL's or M1A's depending on which one I'm favoring that day.

.30 that is reliable, accurate enough at ranges I can defend in court and fits in a tennis racket case... I generally prefer the AK

although I'm working on a PARA FAL setup that has interesting possibilities...

Guns are like golf clubs...


I've got about 40 Stripped AR lowers, and over 50 AK parts kits... And I've slapped together more than a few AK's and sent them to training classes where they functioned just fine.

Some of us like to build.

 

[RyanW]

I've probably headspace checked more barrels this year than the number of rounds shot this year by about 85% of the members on this forum. Have yet to find one not pass, same with the bolts. Checking torque is pretty easy, and anyone with good mechanical experience can "feel" the proper torque after a few dozen times of using a torque wrench on the same thing, but that doesn't negate the need to verify. I've torn apart failed guns from people using out of spec garbage parts, and just **** poor home build jobs, usually done by someone who looks at a flathead screwdriver the same way as they look at a butter knife.

Only a few companies make ALL AR parts. There may be a couple people, literally maybe 2 or 3, on here that actually own a "Mil-spec" lower, and probably fewer can understand why.

There is more ******** on this forum when it comes to advice on gun brands than pretty much anywhere else. Can't talk bad about bushmaster and dpms, and then talk good about Noveske, since their receivers are made in the same plant, to MILSPEC. Same with DSA, Knights, and Colt, all came out of the same facility at one point in time, if not the same time. To say that other companies use a higher standard is ********, because they all use the same spec sheet, it's either in spec or it isn't, simple as that. Now each "builder company" may request different things to make things smoother or whatever, but the spec never changes, it just has a range of variable.

If it were me and I wanted to do a budget build, I'd spend money on nice upper and lower receiver and BCG, the rest can be "spec" and crappy and it will do the job. Then I'd go to barrel, trigger, and LASTLY furniture. Optics should always be a part of an initial long gun purchase.



I normally do my part in Kool-aid-boarding people into submission for the HK's, but it's no where near his budget, nor does it fit his needs, so I passed this time

 

[JNieman]

How do you know you are buying an in spec barrel and bolt? You are putting blind faith in the manufacturer(s), if you want to take that chance, then go ahead, but don't spread mis-information. I guarantee you than any reputable manufacturer of AR15's verifies headspace after assembly... there is a reason for it.

What makes you think a complete rifle is more likely to be in spec than the individual parts of a factory barrel with factory installed barrel extension?

 

[JR1572]

Jim Fuller's FAL's and AK's started off as off as home builds... So did Clark custom 1911's...

If you don't want to.. Fine.

I know that I knew less about AK's and FAL's before I tore a few down and put em back together...

NOW... I'm MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE depending on them, and troubleshooting and fixing them.


As to if I'd like an AK better... It depends.

Shooting prairie dogs at a couple hundred yards... I'll take an AR

reaching out to 500 on man sized targets... I'll take one of my FAL's or M1A's depending on which one I'm favoring that day.

.30 that is reliable, accurate enough at ranges I can defend in court and fits in a tennis racket case... I generally prefer the AK

although I'm working on a PARA FAL setup that has interesting possibilities...

Guns are like golf clubs...


I've got about 40 Stripped AR lowers, and over 50 AK parts kits... And I've slapped together more than a few AK's and sent them to training classes where they functioned just fine.

Some of us like to build.

Congratulations, you enjoy building guns. I don't. I simply don't have the time to tinker...

JR1572

 

[Nomad.2nd]

How do you know you are buying an in spec barrel and bolt? You are putting blind faith in the manufacturer(s), if you want to take that chance, then go ahead, but don't spread mis-information. I guarantee you than any reputable manufacturer of AR15's verifies headspace after assembly... there is a reason for it.

I want to say 2 things (and mainly stay out of the peeing match going on, been a rough couple weeks and I'm not in the mood)

JN is a drafter/designer/CNC machinest etc...

He is VERY aware of things like specs, and is anal retentive down past a single thousandth... (I have reason to know)

Secondly... While people may have various opinions about me personally... I trust that most know I pretty much have no hobbies except girls, guns, and motorcycles... And I probably spend more time on guns than girls!!!

ESPECIALLY nowadays... Manufacturers are STRUGGLING to get parts... And there have been some sub-par parts and assembly.

I've seen spikes guns on the shelf missing a front sight!
Daniel Defense had some issues awhile back also...

And I think both are good companies.

$h!t happens... Check your 'stuff'
Don't trust a name.



That said, I agree your odds are about the same with a complete upper and a finished gun.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Congratulations, you enjoy building guns. I don't. I simply don't have the time to tinker...

JR1572

Already addressed this:

So don't.

 

[JNieman]

Thanks Nomad. I think you're right though, it's long been a pissing match and I sometimes don't know when to quit... now looks like as good a time as any (other than maybe 3 pages ago...)

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Thanks Nomad. I think you're right though, it's long been a pissing match and I sometimes don't know when to quit... now looks like as good a time as any (other than maybe 3 pages ago...)

You still owe me an adaptor for my .22!!!

-and need to come see my property.

I lost your number, you didn't loose mine!

 

[aroundlsu]

I am helping my dad build his first AR. He is having a great time doing it. He has plenty of rifles already and just wanted to get into the assault weapon craze before it was too late. We went the PSA route. The goal was to build the cheapest AR we could and see what turns out. I already have two piston ARs that I built and sunk thousands into so it will be fun to see what he can get for $500 or so.

 

[GunRelated]

Maybe I am missing something here, or maybe I don't know as much as I think I know (good chance here).

If you want to piece together your own AR, then by all means, do it. However I would definitely reccomend buying a complete upper, as said before, because it wont save you much, if any, $ to build it. Buying the complete upper, from a reputable manufacturer like BCM, Spike's, Colt, DD, ect, will give you piece of mind that it was built correctly and to "spec". this will also get you a warranty in case something is not up to par. Building the lower is not rocket science, and can be fun to "tinker" with and could save you a few bucks as opposed to buying a complete lower or complete rifle.

That said, why would a "home built" rifle that was built using a quality complete upper, be any less of a performer than a factory built rifle? I can understand this being the case if the upper was "home built", but fail to understand how building your own lower would make for an untrustworthy rifle.

 

[aard3]

What makes you think a complete rifle is more likely to be in spec than the individual parts of a factory barrel with factory installed barrel extension?

I didn't say that, so don't put words in my mouth.

What I did say is that reputable manufacturers DO verify headspace... why would they do that if their parts all their parts are "in spec"?... well, because people make mistakes, crap happens, etc. If we lived in a perfect world, where all the parts are manufactured perfectly, and then assembled perfectly, you might have a point... but the bottom line is we don't.

If you don't want to verify headspace, then by all means, do whatever you want... but don't go spouting off misleading information that could potentially get someone hurt.

 

[aard3]

Maybe I am missing something here, or maybe I don't know as much as I think I know (good chance here).

If you want to piece together your own AR, then by all means, do it. However I would definitely reccomend buying a complete upper, as said before, because it wont save you much, if any, $ to build it. Buying the complete upper, from a reputable manufacturer like BCM, Spike's, Colt, DD, ect, will give you piece of mind that it was built correctly and to "spec". this will also get you a warranty in case something is not up to par. Building the lower is not rocket science, and can be fun to "tinker" with and could save you a few bucks as opposed to buying a complete lower or complete rifle.

That said, why would a "home built" rifle that was built using a quality complete upper, be any less of a performer than a factory built rifle? I can understand this being the case if the upper was "home built", but fail to understand how building your own lower would make for an untrustworthy rifle.

I don't have any doubt that given the proper skills, knowledge, parts and tools, one can assemble a very reliable rifle... the catch is that someone coming to an internet forum asking for advice on what AR to buy probably doesn't have all of those. It would probably be better for him to buy a rifle from one of several companies that are known to produce a quality product.

 

[flamatrix99]

My first AR was a striped EA lower and I bought a mid-length rifle kit from Del-Ton. Took me 30 mintues to assemble and it worked great. I never headspaced anything mainly because it came assembled and I didn't know I should. I ended up trading it to a member on here.

I also built a service rifle. We had a group buy at work for striped lowers. Then I bought a RRA LPK and 2 stage match trigger from gmshooter. I sent the trigger off to White Oak Armament and had it "tuned". Which i think is a fancy word for polished. Im not complaining because it is a very nice trigger. Another member here gave me an A2 buttstock shell and gmshooter got me the rest of the buttstock parts I needed. Now I bought an assembled and tested upper receiver from White Oak Armament. I love that rifle. It shoots so nice and more accurate then i could imagine. It's heavy though with the Stainless bull barrel.

Not every home build is a Franken-gun.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I've probably headspace checked more barrels this year than the number of rounds shot this year by about 85% of the members on this forum. Have yet to find one not pass, same with the bolts. Checking torque is pretty easy, and anyone with good mechanical experience can "feel" the proper torque after a few dozen times of using a torque wrench on the same thing, but that doesn't negate the need to verify. I've torn apart failed guns from people using out of spec garbage parts, and just **** poor home build jobs, usually done by someone who looks at a flathead screwdriver the same way as they look at a butter knife.

Only a few companies make ALL AR parts. There may be a couple people, literally maybe 2 or 3, on here that actually own a "Mil-spec" lower, and probably fewer can understand why.

There is more ******** on this forum when it comes to advice on gun brands than pretty much anywhere else. Can't talk bad about bushmaster and dpms, and then talk good about Noveske, since their receivers are made in the same plant, to MILSPEC. Same with DSA, Knights, and Colt, all came out of the same facility at one point in time, if not the same time. To say that other companies use a higher standard is ********, because they all use the same spec sheet, it's either in spec or it isn't, simple as that. Now each "builder company" may request different things to make things smoother or whatever, but the spec never changes, it just has a range of variable.

If it were me and I wanted to do a budget build, I'd spend money on nice upper and lower receiver and BCG, the rest can be "spec" and crappy and it will do the job. Then I'd go to barrel, trigger, and LASTLY furniture. Optics should always be a part of an initial long gun purchase.



I normally do my part in Kool-aid-boarding people into submission for the HK's, but it's no where near his budget, nor does it fit his needs, so I passed this time

A great deal of the information in this post is in correct. There are a ton of people making AR Parts now. There are a ton of people making lowers. Noveske makes theirs in house. And no they don't all use the same spec sheet. Stop believing the propaganda.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Every gunsmith or aviation mechanic who ever ****ed up a project by over-torquing something claimed he could feel torque. That's a pretty half-ass excuse for being too lazy to use the proper tool. I know for fact that at places like Colt, DD, BCm, Rem Def, and Noveske they don't allow people to "feel" torque. There's good reaso for it. There is a diffrence in the way parts are machined from raw forgings and extrusions. Do Bushmaster and Colt use the same extrusion shops and forge? No, but even if they did its what they do with them when they get them in house that matters. How do they maintain tolerances? How often do they change their tooling? What's their standard? Worlds of diffrence. Lots of companies ,DD for instance, build everything but furniture and Bolts and Carriers in house. They even build their own screws and springs. They aren't unique in that. It allows them to control quality. Just because the shop you work in just assembles other people's parts don't assume everyone else does.

 

[Cajun_Tiger]

But why buy something just because its local that doesn't have as good of reputation just to buy local?

JMO, but I think RJF has a fine reputation as well as Essential. They both make and manufacture fine products.