Shooting competition for Defensive Training

[goteron]

I shot my first USPSA match last weekend and had a lot of fun. Thanks to Sin-Ster for answering all of my questions and getting me all setup. Thanks to everyone that setups and runs these matches. I know its a lot of work.

Everyone I met was extremely kind and helpful. A good set of people all around. Of course I am biased toward the squad I was in, but well, you know... Its just a good environment.

I wanted to shoot the match to hone my defensive skills and do something different.

I have no intention of becoming a real competitor and am only interested in defensive shooting.

So, this post in no way takes away from the guys that shoot competition, they are some very good shooters, its just a different approach than I am interested in.

Here are some things I noticed that I would consider "Bad Habits" for defensive shooting, but are obviously beneficial to competition shooting, and if I intended to get into competition I would gladly embrace. These guys plan the stages to the T, and from what it seems, that is where matches are won. It doesnt hurt they can shoot extremely well either.

1. Gear choice - Obviously setup for speed, not concealment or retention, this is something I can easily work around, just by shooting what I carry. The guns are competition guns and setup for that.
2. Planning - I tried not to walk through the stages, and instead just took a look for all of the targets, in retrospect, I shouldnt be doing this.
3. Double-tap mentality. As I understand it, things dont happen like that in the real world, and programming yourself to shoot at a target twice is a bad idea.
4. Competition driven target engagament sequences. Not highest threat engagement sequence. (Shooting a distance target before a close target to gain extra speed across the stage) - Again, something I can work around.
5. Non-combative shooting stances (Balancing on one leg, over-driving cover, just speed stances and postures instead of combat oriented)
6. Use of cover - Sacrificing good cover for speed - Something that can be worked around as well.
7. Restricted movement - Designed for safety, and very understandable, but not combat oriented.
8. Combat mindset - As soon as the stage is completed, the gun is very rapidly cleared and holstered. - This can be worked around with a SaA drill before clearing. - This also transfers to cover, movement, engagement sequences, etc.

And some things I think are very useful for defensive shooting.

1. Emphasis on accurate and fast target engagement and transitions.
2. Varying tactical type problems to solve.
3. Each stage is sufficiently different
4. Some added stress of on-lookers and being on a timer.
5. Great practice shooting on the move, reloading on the move, ammo management, etc.

I plan on continuing to shoot these matches and try to stay centered on in a combat shooting mindset.

But I am interested in hearing some thoughts from both combat and competition shooters on how they feel this fits in.

Again, no knock agaisnt the competition guys, they can shoot and drive the gun very well.

 

[flamatrix99]

IDPA matches are setup more for defensive shooting then USPSA. USPSA is more of a speed game. There is an "outlaw" meaning non sanctioned IDPA match held in Amite. Check the calander here for dates. There are much more wiser guys on here that shoot matches regularly that can tell you more about them.

 

[SpeedRacer]

What matrix said. When I was looking into matches (for the same reasons as you Trent), it was pretty clear USPSA is definitely much more competition oriented than IDPA, which is more based in defensive shooting.

 

[NOLASHOOTER]

May I ask what gun you used?

 

[goteron]

My carry gun in my carry holster with a dual mag pouch instead of the single I carry.

I will say after seeing some of the open guns, I wouldnt mind trying an open M&P. With a frame mounted optic and comp.

 

[enutees]

We enjoyed having you on our squad. You shot really well especially for your first match.

You are not the only guy that takes a more tactical approach and shoots the match the way they want to. I have seen quite a few guys that use cover and reload at tactically approriately time instead of the fastest way. I, of course, am in it for the competition but feel it hones your shooting skills to a higher level than most standard shooting drills etc will do even looking at it from a competition mind set.

IDPA will require you to use cover and shoot stages in a planned manner but in my opinion is no more realistic than USPSA. It is all a shooting sport and not real training. Enjoy it for what it is and take from it what you want and you will have fun.

 

[SpeedRacer]

I will say after seeing some of the open guns, I wouldnt mind trying an open M&P. With a frame mounted optic and comp.

And here we go! You know how many guys start shooting competitions for "defensive purposes" and slowly turn into gamers? It's a trap!

 

[flamatrix99]

I have only shot one IDPA match and one USPSA match. Both a cpl years ago.

 

[goteron]

Whit, it was great shooting with and talking to you as well. Excellent shooting on your part. Ill be there in June.

I agree with the IDPA assessment, I have watched some of the videos, and was advised to stay away.

USPSA is definitely worthwhile, but as Speedracer said, I just need to stay focused on what I am there for. I am a competitive person by nature, so it will be difficult for me.

At some point I want to shoot a match with a full blown open M&P just to see what its like. And then quickly sell the gun.

 

[mahamoti]

I got into USPSA knowing full well it wasn't very "tactical". But, there is still much to be learned there, especially compared to the average slow-fire, set distance, no draw, range time that was my only previous experience. Ideally, I'd be attending 2-3 practical/tactical pistol courses a month... but USPSA matches are a *slightly* (read: severely) more economical way to hone some skills that I'd venture to guess the majority of gun owners never practice.

 

[scooterj]

Any time you can shoot with the added stress of a timer and onlookers will help. Think of the matches as training. If you should need to defend yourself or anyone else, you may not have time to think. The way you train will kick in. And have fun at any match you attend. Don't get caught up in the "I gotta win" stuff. No one will ever accuse me of being a turd at a match.

 

[BUSTER48]

Any time you can shoot with the added stress of a timer and onlookers will help. Think of the matches as training. If you should need to defend yourself or anyone else, you may not have time to think. The way you train will kick in. And have fun at any match you attend. Don't get caught up in the "I gotta win" stuff. No one will ever accuse me of being a turd at a match.

Yep. Gotta agree with Scooter on this one. I will never get caught up in the "I gotta win" stuff, I'm caught up in the "I gotta play" stuff.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I would have liked to attend but I was busy, you know working.

 

[Sin-ster]

<----- certified "turd", then.

But I try not to be abrasive or overly intense with those around me-- just in my own head, and with my occasional vocal outbursts.

I've posted extensively and thoroughly on this topic fairly recently, so I'll *try* not to get turn into too much of a windbag! Here goes...

Goteron's experience, assessment and performance solidifies what I've believed for a long time. Like many of the other practiced/trained combat-oriented types that come out, he did VERY well-- despite several handicaps. Shooting Open Minor, rolling with a slide-mounted optic and no comp, taking a wholly tactical approach, and not working on walk-throughs or stage plans like we gamers do, he still did extremely well. Few people can come out for the first time and claim 2nd on a stage (as he did), especially considering all of those obstacles! Goteron's biggest strength, and what absolutely blew me away, was his confidence in the shooting (and especially the moving), coupled with his calm and cool demeanor. I've been doing this for a little over a year now and I shake like a leaf sometimes when I step in the box. Watching him run through the stages, he looked like an old pro!

I am 95% certain that all of the aforementioned facts are linked. He did well because he can shoot competently and has EXCELLENT weapon manipulations. Those tools breed the confidence, especially when they're used and proven regularly-- and it really showed in his performance.

Quite obviously, a lot of the stuff translates. The core and subsequently most important mechanics, in fact-- balance of "speed and accuracy" (which appears on several combat training fliers these days), target transitions, movements, manipulations, etc. Game-oriented or not-- combat shooting skills are combat shooting skills, no matter how you slice them.

I've come to realize that the things that separate the disciplines are actually more important to the combat shooter than the competitor. Any one of the "negatives" that goteron listed could get you killed in a real gunfight; if you're good enough, not doing them in competition won't necessarily put you at the bottom of the lists (though you'd be a God to ignore them and still top the charts).

Thus it becomes paramount that folks with a combat-oriented approach remain aware of these issues and take the appropriate steps to address them. IMHO, if you simply train and practice for combat shooting and come out for the occasional (even weekly) match, you will be wholly free of the bad habits that competition shooting can breed-- especially with a few considerations on match day, and a few minutes of focused drills in your live and dry fire exercises for combat shooting.

As goteron noted, competitive shooters are 100% concerned with speed and accuracy; combat-oriented shooters have a LOT more going on in their considerations and training. As a result, I utterly believe that the gamer guys are better with the weapons and the shooting (perhaps not in every case, but certainly in your "average-to-accomplished" group) than the real-world guys, simply because they spend all of their time working on it and have nothing else to worry about. That doesn't make one group superior to the other (in a non-weighted comparison). It actually has a positive connotation-- we can all learn a TON from each other, and that's the ****!

If you've been avoiding the competition scene because you fear it will detract from your real-world shooting, I urge you to reconsider. Goteron has provided an excellent framework for keeping the two separated-- shoot what you carry, perform reloads as you would for combat shooting, don't game the stages, and be aware of all of the little things that can form bad habits-- then address them. Spanky, a fabulous competitive shooter, keeps his gun up and indexed on the final target for a good 5-10 seconds after he's done shooting to prevent himself from getting "out of the fight" too quickly; I've seen many guys (including World Champs) sweep the gun around as if checking for threats that may still be standing; some folks do a search and assess before ULSC and putting the gun away. Aside from the 180 rule, as goteron and I discussed at the match, there's really nothing to prevent you from taking a purely tactical approach to the game. Shoot the targets 1-20 times if you like-- if you're not there to compete, the penalties that may be associated won't effect you at all!

It's really, really, really good trigger time with some stress thrown in for good measure. Our field courses are essentially mini-shoot houses, and they change from stage-to-stage and week-to-week. That's a training opportunity that's RARELY afforded to anyone outside of the elite combat/LEO community, or has a ton of money to dedicate to their training. Come out for a match and see how you feel about it-- one day certainly won't break down your skillsets, and there's no law that says you ever have to come back!

I'm so glad that you both enjoyed yourself and were able to take something of value away from the day, goteron! Bridging the gap between the disciplines has become something of a semi-personal quest of mine, as I truly believe there's a lot of merit in the pursuit and TONS of advantages from crossing over (in both directions).

Next step-- get VG out there and see if he's nearly as good as you were!

Windbag, out.

 

[Emperor]

Any time you can shoot with the added stress of a timer and onlookers will help. Think of the matches as training. If you should need to defend yourself or anyone else, you may not have time to think. The way you train will kick in. And have fun at any match you attend. Don't get caught up in the "I gotta win" stuff. No one will ever accuse me of being a turd at a match.

Agreed here!

Goteron, when you find what you are looking for, I am in with you. I did the USPSA route from the same position you are in. I want practical combat style practice too! I am not giving up the USPSA, because it is a kick in the ass, and I think it does make a person a better shooter overall for all the reasons you stated and then some.

 

[davidd]

I got into USPSA last year going to the Monday night practice sessions at Precision. I was using a bone stock G22. Like others have mentioned, I was really looking for an outlet to sharpen my skills under time and observation - i.e. some pressure. But it turned out the be a lot of fun, and honestly, I couldn't stand using equipment that put me at a disadvantage competitively. Now I sport a full out rig with a lightly modded G35 for Production Class. Is it good practice for the real world? Maybe, maybe not. But it sure as hell is fun, and it has to be better than standing in a stall at Precision shooting at an 8" circle over and over...

 

[Emperor]

I got into USPSA last year going to the Monday night practice sessions at Precision. I was using a bone stock G22. Like others have mentioned, I was really looking for an outlet to sharpen my skills under time and observation - i.e. some pressure. But it turned out the be a lot of fun, and honestly, I couldn't stand using equipment that put me at a disadvantage competitively. Now I sport a full out rig with a lightly modded G35 for Production Class. Is it good practice for the real world? Maybe, maybe not. But it sure as hell is fun, and it has to be better than standing in a stall at Precision shooting at an 8" circle over and over...

 

[FishingFool]

From Sin-ster's appraisal of your abilities it seems like you spend a lot of time practicing in your own methods.

6 stages, less than 3 minutes of shooting, less than 200 rds, once or twice a month.

Bad habits come from doing it over and over again repeatedly. If your training regiment far exceeds the 2 minutes and less than 200 rds a match expends than why even worry about it? Its just a mental exercise and a good way to have fun with friends.

 

[enutees]

Whit, it was great shooting with and talking to you as well. Excellent shooting on your part. Ill be there in June.

I agree with the IDPA assessment, I have watched some of the videos, and was advised to stay away.

USPSA is definitely worthwhile, but as Speedracer said, I just need to stay focused on what I am there for. I am a competitive person by nature, so it will be difficult for me.

At some point I want to shoot a match with a full blown open M&P just to see what its like. And then quickly sell the gun.

I wouldn't say IDPA would be an absolute stay away. I just think you can make USPSA the same realism and you get to shoot more. There is no place for your gun anyway even if you do carry it everyday.

Two other things though.

I'm glad you are planning on coming back and enjoyed yourself. Too many people see all the race guns and don't want to participate because of them. They don't realize it doesn't matter what other people are shooting.

And also after playing with your M&P I want one like that for my house/truck etc. I really liked the trijicon more than the others that I've tried.

 

[Sin-ster]

And also after playing with your M&P I want one like that for my house/truck etc. I really liked the trijicon more than the others that I've tried.

The CZ Gods just took aim with their super-accurate lightning bolts.

Even if you're talking about real world applications.

Stay off my platform!