Lawmakers aim to curb military surplus program for police after Ferguson

[Leonidas]

My bullsh1t detector is going crazy.

Not an everyday thing?!! 80,000 times a year? My calendar only has 365 days. Yours?

High risk situations? Breaking up a poker game? A recording studio that might have pirated CDs? Looking for a shirt that was worn in a simple barroom fight?

They are guys. Guys with toys absolutely HAVE to play with them.

I'm good with, "These are good people doing a hard job and I just want them to get home to their families at night." I'm not okay with, "They are good people doing a hard job and I just want them to get home to their families at night no matter who they have to kill to do it."

 

[323MAR]

A MK-19 would have taken down the North Hollywood robbers immediately.

 

[freedive10]

My bullsh1t detector is going crazy.

Not an everyday thing?!! 80,000 times a year? My calendar only has 365 days. Yours?

High risk situations? Breaking up a poker game? A recording studio that might have pirated CDs? Looking for a shirt that was worn in a simple barroom fight?

They are guys. Guys with toys absolutely HAVE to play with them.

I'm good with, "These are good people doing a hard job and I just want them to get home to their families at night." I'm not okay with, "They are good people doing a hard job and I just want them to get home to their families at night no matter who they have to kill to do it."

Way to lump them all into one catagory! B/ we all know:

+

=

 

[Hitman]

Way to lump them all into one catagory! B/ we all know:

Do you see the irony of being lumped into the same category
as felons if your house is wrongly addressed during a raid?

I think that's his point.

 

[Cochise]

I think the better question is why freedive has pics of BDSM "police" like officer kinky, there.

Title that sh*t NSFW, man!

 

[kingfhb]

My bullsh1t detector is going crazy.

Not an everyday thing?!! 80,000 times a year? My calendar only has 365 days. Yours?

High risk situations? Breaking up a poker game? A recording studio that might have pirated CDs? Looking for a shirt that was worn in a simple barroom fight?

They are guys. Guys with toys absolutely HAVE to play with them.

I'm good with, "These are good people doing a hard job and I just want them to get home to their families at night." I'm not okay with, "They are good people doing a hard job and I just want them to get home to their families at night no matter who they have to kill to do it."

Tactical Units don't make the decision to use Tactical Response teams for a specific task. That comes from much higher up in the departmental politics. Also, there are REASONS why they decide to take those steps... to NOT put an un-protected officer into a dangerous situation. Just because YOU think the situation isn't dangerous, doesn't make it so. You have no idea what kind of intelligence was given or reason for escalating those events into a need for a Specialized Unit.

That poker game could have been taking place in a known location of violent felons... or one was known to be present. If so, they have no idea who is with him, or what extents he would take to avoid being part of the game being broken up (which I'm sure there are more to it than that simple explanation).

The recording studio may have again been a known location of illegal drug manufacturing, but instead of putting that on the warrant, to avoid NOT being able to serve it in the future or getting something thrown out in court, they used another reason that they could at least gain access to the facility.

Looking for a shirt that was worn in a simple barroom fight... who was involved in the fight? What were their criminal histories? Any violence against officers or weapons charges?

All of those things are plausible and more than likely you don't know all the facts... most don't. They only see the surface or what is reported by the media. LEO have to deal with that regularly. Not all of the information should, could or does ever see the light of day due to pending cases, future cases being built, etc.

There are a number of sides to consider as well. Maybe the guy who pressed charges in the "T-Shirt" fight was killed the next day and the officers suspected the T-Shirt would lead to more evidence in the case. Maybe the T-Shirt was believed to have been worn in a totally different case. Maybe one of the guys involved in breaking up the fight was suspected in another crime and the T-Shirt could have contained evidence (DNA, etc.) that they could use to match. I know all of these are Hypothetical... but what I mean to do is get you to understand that there's more to it that what the average citizen who watches the news would even know.

These days, Law Enforcement are caught between a rock and a hard place in who to defend, who to accuse, what the repercussions are going to be for EVERY action they take. Much like the military... how many service members were killed or wounded because they hesitated contemplating for a split second if they would get court martialed for shooting the enemy standing in front of them? Or let one guy get away because they may get in trouble for taking someone out and having someone grab their weapon and then 20 people claim he was unarmed.

You have to consider all aspects and that not everything you read or hear is always cut and dry. Summing it up into one sentence is not always possible or so clean cut... Especially in the Law Enforcement field of work.

You think these guys are just sitting in a room and when any task comes along they all spring into action and run geared up? "Oh, kitten in a tree!! Lets gear up!!"... please.

Everyone takes orders and carries out the plan of the day.

 

[paddle007]

Can any you more knowledgeable than I verify this?
I heard that for LEO to meet the terms of 1033 the equipment has to be used within one year. FWIW I have no dog in this hunt.
If this is true it helps me understand the heavy roll out with what appears to be overkill at times.

 

[Vsotok10]

I don't need an LEO to stop a robbery in progress, I don't need an LEO to keep the bad guys out of my house; I can do these things myself. The purpose of LEOs is to keep the rule of law because the rule of law is essential to maintaining our freedoms. Without the rule of law you have the rise of Warlords and Militias which would definitely be more violent and less fair than our current justice system. Unlike some individuals, the sheeple of this county don't want to take responsibility for anything, instead they just want to blame and sue everyone else while claiming to be the victim.

I take issue not with the hardware LEOs carry but the mindset that some LEOs posses. These wannabe soldiers turn their local force into a defacto militia - busting into houses in their tacticool gear when stopping the individual on the street, i.e. traffic stop, would suffice. The courts refuse to penalize law enforcement for lack of good judgment and egregious violations of our civil rights (i.e. Waco/Ruby Ridge/any no-knock); when law enforcement fails to police itself and the courts refuse to apply the laws fairly for fear of blowback, the people have little recourse other than to demand the LEO be neutered so as to reduce his capacity to violate the civil rights of American citizens.

 

[freedive10]

Do you see the irony of being lumped into the same category
as felons if your house is wrongly addressed during a raid?

I think that's his point.

So how does the gear have anything to do with felons and/or wrong no knock raids? Sounds like a policy and tactics issue to me.

 

[freedive10]

I think the better question is why freedive has pics of BDSM "police" like officer kinky, there.

Title that sh*t NSFW, man!

Oh SNAP! Did I use a personal picture again?

 

[madwabbit]

I don't need an LEO to stop a robbery in progress, I don't need an LEO to keep the bad guys out of my house; I can do these things myself.

And when you're at work and your wife or child need help, whom should they call? side note: Typing it is the easy part- unless you've been in a situation where your family depends on you against armed combatants, you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't care how many instructor zero videos you've watched.

The purpose of LEOs is to keep the rule of law because the rule of law is essential to maintaining our freedoms. Without the rule of law you have the rise of Warlords and Militias which would definitely be more violent and less fair than our current justice system. Unlike some individuals, the sheeple of this county don't want to take responsibility for anything, instead they just want to blame and sue everyone else while claiming to be the victim.

I take issue not with the hardware LEOs carry but the mindset that some LEOs posses. These wannabe soldiers turn their local force into a defacto militia - busting into houses in their tacticool gear when stopping the individual on the street, i.e. traffic stop, would suffice. The courts refuse to penalize law enforcement for lack of good judgment and egregious violations of our civil rights (i.e. Waco/Ruby Ridge/any no-knock); when law enforcement fails to police itself and the courts refuse to apply the laws fairly for fear of blowback, the people have little recourse other than to demand the LEO be neutered so as to reduce his capacity to violate the civil rights of American citizens.

I love the part where someone with zero experience dealing with criminals on the street or "busting into houses" tells me how easy it is or how it should be done.

Newflash: Your comment on "The courts refuse to penalize" translates legally to: juries refuse to convict. Thats right friend, you and your buddies decided (almost 9/10 times) that it was a good shoot. If Ferguson taught the public anything, its that the story often changes from what "Shamika's friend had heard" and what the state investigation turns up. No-knocks aren't dissimilar. Just because you heard on facebook that some cop somewhere kicked somebody's door in and got the address wrong doesn't mean that the facts were there or that the situation was as presented to the media. Has this situation in Ferguson taught you nothing?? Hell the story changed 6 different times on national news in as many days.

You listed 2 occasions where -Federal- law enforcement screwed up. (Never mind that you neglected to mention that multiple teams from Local law enforcmenet agencies refused to be present given the substituted rules of engagement.)

Should I begin listing the dozens of occasions where civilian life was being actively taken and the police needed some of the aforementioned equipment to capably respond?

 

[Hitman]

So how does the gear have anything to do with felons and/or wrong no knock raids?
Sounds like a policy and tactics issue to me.

Could be. I was just pointing out the irony.

Like I said, I care not what type of gear they have really
only that it's implemented with as much diligence as possible....and then a little more.

By all means if the hammer needs to come down,
I want it to be Fast, Heavy and Accurate.

But PLEASE let it be a nail that the hammer hits,
and not an innocent finger.

Makes sense?

 

[madwabbit]

Could be. I was just pointing out the irony.

Like I said, I care not what type of gear they have really
only that it's implemented with as much diligence as possible.

I'm in the same boat. To me its awful hypocritical for a citizen to say "I should be able to buy an AR15 because guns don't kill people, bad people do!" or "Stop blaming the gun and blame the criminal"

and then say...

"Cops don't need that gear. It'll hurt people/They'll use it wrong/whatever" How about stop blaming the gear and start taking action against those that misuse it?

I mean, thats what YOU said when liberals wanted your "assault rifles" and 30-rd mags, right?





edit: By YOU, I don't mean YOU specifically Hitman. Regardless of how it looks lol

 

[Leonidas]

Tactical Units don't make the decision to use Tactical Response teams for a specific task. That comes from much higher up in the departmental politics. Also, there are REASONS why they decide to take those steps... to NOT put an un-protected officer into a dangerous situation. Just because YOU think the situation isn't dangerous, doesn't make it so. You have no idea what kind of intelligence was given or reason for escalating those events into a need for a Specialized Unit.

That poker game could have been taking place in a known location of violent felons... or one was known to be present. If so, they have no idea who is with him, or what extents he would take to avoid being part of the game being broken up (which I'm sure there are more to it than that simple explanation).

The recording studio may have again been a known location of illegal drug manufacturing, but instead of putting that on the warrant, to avoid NOT being able to serve it in the future or getting something thrown out in court, they used another reason that they could at least gain access to the facility.

Looking for a shirt that was worn in a simple barroom fight... who was involved in the fight? What were their criminal histories? Any violence against officers or weapons charges?

All of those things are plausible and more than likely you don't know all the facts... most don't. They only see the surface or what is reported by the media. LEO have to deal with that regularly. Not all of the information should, could or does ever see the light of day due to pending cases, future cases being built, etc.

There are a number of sides to consider as well. Maybe the guy who pressed charges in the "T-Shirt" fight was killed the next day and the officers suspected the T-Shirt would lead to more evidence in the case. Maybe the T-Shirt was believed to have been worn in a totally different case. Maybe one of the guys involved in breaking up the fight was suspected in another crime and the T-Shirt could have contained evidence (DNA, etc.) that they could use to match. I know all of these are Hypothetical... but what I mean to do is get you to understand that there's more to it that what the average citizen who watches the news would even know.

These days, Law Enforcement are caught between a rock and a hard place in who to defend, who to accuse, what the repercussions are going to be for EVERY action they take. Much like the military... how many service members were killed or wounded because they hesitated contemplating for a split second if they would get court martialed for shooting the enemy standing in front of them? Or let one guy get away because they may get in trouble for taking someone out and having someone grab their weapon and then 20 people claim he was unarmed.

You have to consider all aspects and that not everything you read or hear is always cut and dry. Summing it up into one sentence is not always possible or so clean cut... Especially in the Law Enforcement field of work.

You think these guys are just sitting in a room and when any task comes along they all spring into action and run geared up? "Oh, kitten in a tree!! Lets gear up!!"... please.

Everyone takes orders and carries out the plan of the day.

If nobody really knows the truth about these situations, congratulations on a fine work of fiction. My butt would be sore from pulling that much out of it.

Maybe the poker players were envoys from Zenon Vega 3, bearing a limitless supply of worldwide energy. The shirt was most likely a cloaking device that was going to be used to plunder the US gold reserve.

What kind of intelligence went into the operation? All to often the answer is ZERO. Maybe these PDs could get some surplus brains from the military. Cause in some of them there aren't enough to go around.

 

[ta2d_cop]

For all you non-LEO types that have obviously solved all the issue plaguing law enforcement:

I hear these agencies are hiring, why don't you put in an application and do your part to actually contribute to the effort? Work you way up the chain and effect the positive changes you believe in so adamantly. Lead from the front. I'm 100% serious. IM me and I will give you my info to use as a reference. Get in a reserve program.

http://www.covla.com/police_department/career_opportunities.php
http://www.stpso.com/jobs.php
http://www.nola.gov/nopd/police-recruiting/

And for those who are SMEs on Policing who claim they can't quit there current job for financial reasons, I hear NOPD is looking for a chief of police. It pays $175K a year.

Its really easy to sit back and watch from the outside and think you know what the issues are.

The reality is all the stuff that is wrong in LE is all the stuff that is wrong in society at large. We have been forced to hire political hacks, morons, fools, and cowards because in todays society everyone gets a trophy and a hug. You can't tell a 24 year old Xbox playing fat ass he isn't can't out to be the police when he gets his feelings hurt for committing an officer safety violation endangering his shift mates. We hire convicted felons with an expungement for burglary then make them officer of the year when they are literally to stupid to spell the name of the city they police in. We, you, Us, have allowed the powers that be to lower the standard for our kids, buddy, cousins and/or dogs because everyone deserves a chance to achieve their dream. Then that dumbass is socially promoted because he "means well" or "has a really good heart" and the next thing you know he is a unit commander planning a no-knock raid on the wrong house and running over your dog in a MRAP WHEN HE SHOULDN'T BE CLEANING THE DOG **** OUT OF THE K9 KENNEL!!!!! That is the root ****ing problem. PERIOD. Law enforcement is a segment of and representation of society and OUR SOCIETY IS ****ED!! We wanted everyone to get a trophy and now they do!!!! How's that **** working out for you?!?

Seriously guy, Ya'll don't see the insider **** we do, our job is hard enough, then we are crippled by our own... We seriously have become a one-legged duck swimming in a circle. Until we implement higher standards and higher levels of accountability at all levels, especially the command and executive levels, these things will continue to happen. Believe it or not the "boots on the ground' guys with brains do their damnedest to make sure crazy **** doesn't happen.

Now I'm done, I ain't mad at ya'll , it just isn't worth my effort to try and change the minds of people not willing to try and walk in my shoes and at least give me a shot. I get it, everyone hate the cops till they need us, and everyone eventually needs us, even the "I don't need an LEO to stop a robbery in progress, I don't need an LEO to keep the bad guys out of my house; I can do these things myself." guys

 

[freedive10]

Could be. I was just pointing out the irony.

Like I said, I care not what type of gear they have really
only that it's implemented with as much diligence as possible....and then a little more.

By all means if the hammer needs to come down,
I want it to be Fast, Heavy and Accurate.

But PLEASE let it be a nail that the hammer hits,
and not an innocent finger.

Makes sense?

110% agreed! I would hope More firepower = More RESPONSABILITY. Just as the case for us civilians who own NFA items.

 

[Leonidas]

80,000/year
219/day
9/hour

1 EVERY SEVEN MINUTES

 

[Hitman]

why don't you put in an application and do your part to actually contribute to the effort?
Work you way up the chain and effect the positive changes you believe in so adamantly. Lead from the front.

jeez...sounds like I was back in the Fleet
listening to my Squad Leader

Want **** to change, do your time and change it when you pick up Sgt Maj.
until then, STFU BOOT!

 

[ta2d_cop]

jeez...sounds like I was back in the Fleet
listening to my Squad Leader

Want **** to change, do your time and change it when you pick up Sgt Maj.
until then, STFU BOOT!

SF

 

[madwabbit]

For all you non-LEO types that have obviously solved all the issue plaguing law enforcement:

I hear these agencies are hiring, why don't you put in an application and do your part to actually contribute to the effort? Work you way up the chain and effect the positive changes you believe in so adamantly. Lead from the front.

http://www.covla.com/police_department/career_opportunities.php
http://www.stpso.com/jobs.php
http://www.nola.gov/nopd/police-recruiting/

Its really easy to sit back and watch from the outside and think you know what the issues are.

I'll do ya one better. Just attend a few city council meetings, and speak. Boy oh boy when there's a kid hurt in a no-knock, people here can suddenly type 200 words a minute. How many actually filled out the pink slip and spoke at ANY governing body meeting or legislative event? I'll bet its = Zero.

I have attended more than I can count, and I've got minutes to back it up. It's really easy to see whose serious about these issues and whose just internet ranting when they won't even invest an hour of their time to speak where it might actually hold some benefit. If this last bit pertains to you: you're either lazy or a coward, and you're allowing and enabling each of the problems you pretend to hate. (The truly sad part is that many of you, at face value, feel very strongly about these issues... why not get it on the record?)

/endrant

Sorry ta2d - you made an excellent point and I went rogue.