Lawmakers aim to curb military surplus program for police after Ferguson

[Leonidas]

And some of the LEOs that are so special that know so much more than us lowly citizens are damned casual about collaterals. Friend those are real previously live people.

A few of you sound like I would IF I said after the next death of a swatter, 'meh, play military games, suffer military consequences. Tough sh1t, Sparky.'

 

[madwabbit]

I'll just be over here.

awaiting any response to post #93, thanks.

 

[freedive10]

And some of the LEOs that are so special that know so much more than us lowly citizens are damned casual about collaterals. Friend those are real previously live people.

A few of you sound like I would IF I said after the next death of a swatter, 'meh, play military games, suffer military consequences. Tough sh1t, Sparky.'

CASUAL!? How do you know what they are thinking and feeling!?

 

[ta2d_cop]

And some of the LEOs that are so special that know so much more than us lowly citizens are damned casual about collaterals. Friend those are real previously live people.

And some of us plan these ops several time a month or week and have never had any "collaterals" because we actually hate the idea of innocent blood on our hands; but I'm sure you were going to point that out in your next post......

Or maybe were all just blood thirsty jack-booted thug agents of the government incapable of thought on our own who never got laid and were picked on in high school. Because everyone deserves to be judged not on their own merit, but on the minority of their group that represent them in a negative light....

Oh wait, that only applies to cops, sorry.

 

[BIRDMAN 504]

A lot of paranoia about the police! $5000 poll tax? Give me a break. We all know that the police and their families are all wealthy enough that they would be exempt from that if that ridiculous scenario was to take place. Then some comment that if someone is robbed or burglarized that they don't need the police anyway? Is fantasy land a gated community? If you don't need the police then good for you, go down to your local police department and let them know that so they don't waste their time patrolling your neighborhood when you are not home. Wait, I forgot, if they know that about you they will immediate drive a tank through your house and execute you because you don't share their beliefs. Then it's repeated that these officers have this equipment to fight an unnecessary war on drugs. I'm sure all here would have no reaction to crack and heroin dealers moving into their neighborhood and bring their entourage. These people have obviously never had a candid conversation with a police officer. I have several times, and none of them condone oppression of civilians. Officers and their families live among us and in our communities. If we are oppressed, then they and their families are as well. Police would not be moved into mansions and be the lords of the land to be the "foot soldiers" of our oppressive government.

Honestly, if those here that think the police are really the power hungry oppressors that they are made out to be, then I challenge you. Try talking to a couple of them an maybe even voice your concerns to them (and not while on a traffic stop or in the middle of an investigation). I think that you would be pleasantly surprised to find that they are not the enemy you think they are. Just remember that they are people too and if you get totally ignorant with them, they may wish to end the conversation and just stop talking to you. And before you retort that you will then be a target and they will be on you like white-on-rice, just remember that they have enough to do on a daily basis and don't have time to waste oppressing you because they don't like what you say and your line of questioning.

 

[kingfhb]

And some of the LEOs that are so special that know so much more than us lowly citizens are damned casual about collaterals. Friend those are real previously live people.

A few of you sound like I would IF I said after the next death of a swatter, 'meh, play military games, suffer military consequences. Tough sh1t, Sparky.'

Yet again... only looking at it from YOUR side. Do LEO do everything they can to prevent collaterals? Of course they do. Do they just dump a house without any prior intelligence? Negative my friend. HOWEVER, you blame the OFFICERS for collaterals on serving a warrant where someone gets hurt?? The criminal that the warrant is being served on bears no responsibility for requiring such an operation in the first place???? That's not military games... the last time I checked, we haven't dropped any JDAM's on a house in the US to take out a criminal.

Procedures are followed. Necessities are just that. Walking up and knocking on the door of a felon that escaped from prison and has vowed to never be taken alive that just happens to have six other people in the room with him when the warrant is served and the flash can that is thrown is makes their eyes and ears hurt, so they file a claim against the officers and department is NOT collateral to me. YOU choose who you hang with... and thereby YOU know what they've done and what they are capable of. Choose your friends wisely (and with some common sense). If you do choose to hang with a criminal... don't bring your children with you and PUT them in possible harms way!!

So lets knock on the door "Eh hem... escuse me is Tom home?"... WHAT???? Then we can just wait for the shotgun blast through the door. Or maybe he shoots two of the people inside or takes them as hostages... then what? "Why didn't the police take him when they had the chance??"

Give me a break. Again, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Oh and...

Maybe the poker players were envoys from Zenon Vega 3, bearing a limitless supply of worldwide energy. The shirt was most likely a cloaking device that was going to be used to plunder the US gold reserve.

Nerd.

 

[ta2d_cop]

A lot of paranoia about the police! $5000 poll tax? Give me a break. We all know that the police and their families are all wealthy enough that they would be exempt from that if that ridiculous scenario was to take place. Then some comment that if someone is robbed or burglarized that they don't need the police anyway? Is fantasy land a gated community? If you don't need the police then good for you, go down to your local police department and let them know that so they don't waste their time patrolling your neighborhood when you are not home. Wait, I forgot, if they know that about you they will immediate drive a tank through your house and execute you because you don't share their beliefs. Then it's repeated that these officers have this equipment to fight an unnecessary war on drugs. I'm sure all here would have no reaction to crack and heroin dealers moving into their neighborhood and bring their entourage. These people have obviously never had a candid conversation with a police officer. I have several times, and none of them condone oppression of civilians. Officers and their families live among us and in our communities. If we are oppressed, then they and their families are as well. Police would not be moved into mansions and be the lords of the land to be the "foot soldiers" of our oppressive government.

Honestly, if those here that think the police are really the power hungry oppressors that they are made out to be, then I challenge you. Try talking to a couple of them an maybe even voice your concerns to them (and not while on a traffic stop or in the middle of an investigation). I think that you would be pleasantly surprised to find that they are not the enemy you think they are. Just remember that they are people too and if you get totally ignorant with them, they may wish to end the conversation and just stop talking to you. And before you retort that you will then be a target and they will be on you like white-on-rice, just remember that they have enough to do on a daily basis and don't have time to waste oppressing you because they don't like what you say and your line of questioning.

 

[freedive10]

Solved the problem!!

 

[madwabbit]

I'd drive the hell out of that truck

 

[Armed Mage]

For all you non-LEO types that have obviously solved all the issue plaguing law enforcement:

I hear these agencies are hiring, why don't you put in an application and do your part to actually contribute to the effort? Work you way up the chain and effect the positive changes you believe in so adamantly. Lead from the front. I'm 100% serious. IM me and I will give you my info to use as a reference. Get in a reserve program.

http://www.covla.com/police_department/career_opportunities.php
http://www.stpso.com/jobs.php
http://www.nola.gov/nopd/police-recruiting/

And for those who are SMEs on Policing who claim they can't quit there current job for financial reasons, I hear NOPD is looking for a chief of police. It pays $175K a year.

That's a big reason why my friend who shares a lot of my views on the problems of police brutality and militarization is becoming a police officer. I myself have applied to be a park ranger (which to my knowledge is a certified LEO) and hope to become a wildlife agent sometime down the road. The reserve deputy program interests me as well, just so I can get a firsthand knowledge of how the police operate, however my first priority right now is getting a paying job.

My biggest personal reservation in becoming a police officer is that I don't believe in victimless crimes. I refuse to take someone to jail for simply having a bag of weed or for selling raw milk.

Its really easy to sit back and watch from the outside and think you know what the issues are.

The reality is all the stuff that is wrong in LE is all the stuff that is wrong in society at large. We have been forced to hire political hacks, morons, fools, and cowards because in todays society everyone gets a trophy and a hug. You can't tell a 24 year old Xbox playing fat ass he isn't can't out to be the police when he gets his feelings hurt for committing an officer safety violation endangering his shift mates. We hire convicted felons with an expungement for burglary then make them officer of the year when they are literally to stupid to spell the name of the city they police in. We, you, Us, have allowed the powers that be to lower the standard for our kids, buddy, cousins and/or dogs because everyone deserves a chance to achieve their dream. Then that dumbass is socially promoted because he "means well" or "has a really good heart" and the next thing you know he is a unit commander planning a no-knock raid on the wrong house and running over your dog in a MRAP WHEN HE SHOULDN'T BE CLEANING THE DOG **** OUT OF THE K9 KENNEL!!!!! That is the root ****ing problem. PERIOD. Law enforcement is a segment of and representation of society and OUR SOCIETY IS ****ED!! We wanted everyone to get a trophy and now they do!!!! How's that **** working out for you?!?

Seriously guy, Ya'll don't see the insider **** we do, our job is hard enough, then we are crippled by our own... We seriously have become a one-legged duck swimming in a circle. Until we implement higher standards and higher levels of accountability at all levels, especially the command and executive levels, these things will continue to happen. Believe it or not the "boots on the ground' guys with brains do their damnedest to make sure crazy **** doesn't happen.

Now I'm done, I ain't mad at ya'll , it just isn't worth my effort to try and change the minds of people not willing to try and walk in my shoes and at least give me a shot. I get it, everyone hate the cops till they need us, and everyone eventually needs us, even the "I don't need an LEO to stop a robbery in progress, I don't need an LEO to keep the bad guys out of my house; I can do these things myself." guys

I realize that people who have never been in law enforcement cannot understand what it is truly like. However that doesn't negate the legitimacy of questioning and concern the American public at large is having over police conduct. Not only are police are public servants who are paid with taxpayer money, but they hold an authority that we are subject to whether we like it or not. Police should serve the people, not the other way around.

 

[madwabbit]

Not only are police are public servants who are paid with taxpayer money, but they hold an authority that we are subject to whether we like it or not. Police should serve the people, not the other way around.

Citizens vote the police chief, sheriff, mayor, and elected law makers into/out of office.
Citizens vote on specific bills.
Citizens make up the grand jury which decides whether or not the DA can press charges at all.
Citizens make up the jury in the courtroom, which decides whether or not the defendant is guilty.

IMO Citizens hold an authority that law enforcement is subject to, like it or not... which is how it should be, and how this country was founded.

No matter what involvement you had with a police officer, somewhere along the way a group of citizens is responsible for the entire process- including the outcome.

 

[Leonidas]

You are a broken record.

Who died and made you the grand poobah of acceptable community involvement?

 

[madwabbit]

You are a broken record.

Who died and made you the grand poobah of acceptable community involvement?

Ask anyone who the president of the united states is. It'll be a broken record because its just fact.

Citizens hold the trump cards, its just fact. Learn the system before you bash and berate it.

Sorry if this realization pointed out inadequacies in your civil responsibility?

 

[Leonidas]

The incontrovertable fact is that when confronted with a difficult argument, your go to tactic is to lash out personally. It's lame and transparent and invariably based on pure conjecture. Alinsky says, "You fail."

 

[madwabbit]

I didn't say anything about this towards you - you inferred it and took it upon yourself. Hell you could have been on the city council for all I knew, until that post.

It gets old quick when you whine and troll about how leos are bad and tactics are bad and gear is bad and ....well, its not bad enough to actually DO anything about it, you just want to be heard complaining about it. Thats perfectly fine- sorry again if you inferred this as directed to you, because it wasn't... necessarily.


I imagine that if you even once posted your city council's response to your opposition to no-knock warrants that we'd make progress. Until its important enough for an hour of your time, I doubt we will. Alternatively, I suppose, you could just admit that you're frustrated with how things are and don't know how to make any valid attempt to resolve them. Some people are talkers, and some are doers. I don't mean that to be condescending. I'm not a firefighter because I hate fire and am scared as heck of heights. I'm not a doer when it comes to fire.

besides. fireman eat until they are tired then sleep til they are hungry- thats not my style.

 

[Vsotok10]

And when you're at work and your wife or child need help, whom should they call? side note: Typing it is the easy part- unless you've been in a situation where your family depends on you against armed combatants, you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't care how many instructor zero videos you've watched.

My family should call 911 to have a record of them defending themselves - when seconds count the police are only minutes away. While I do not have any combat experience I can certainly kill someone with little effort thanks to modern firearms. Problem is, I have to be more concerned about what the DA will do after the shoot than shot placement/rounds fired. My wife has her own pistols and can run an AR or AK with enough proficiency to get lead down range, she may not kill the bad guy but he/they will reconsider their plan of action and possibly retreat - if nothing else she can delay until the police arrive. If someone raped my wife, I don't need the police to arrest the man and the jury to try the man - I have a gun, rope, a can of gas, and the will to use it. Everyone has different thresholds, don't assume what someone is capable of and willing to do.

I love the part where someone with zero experience dealing with criminals on the street or "busting into houses" tells me how easy it is or how it should be done.

I was speaking more to the decision making than the execution. Wasn't too long ago there was a thread on here about a cop being killed during a no-knock, the raid was justified based upon testimony from a felon turned informant. There is no justification for using no-knocks on non-violent offenders or when there is no danger to life; Louisiana statues make it abundantly clear that we do not kill over material items whether they be bricks of coke or bootleg dvds.

Newflash: Your comment on "The courts refuse to penalize" translates legally to: juries refuse to convict. Thats right friend, you and your buddies decided (almost 9/10 times) that it was a good shoot. If Ferguson taught the public anything, its that the story often changes from what "Shamika's friend had heard" and what the state investigation turns up. No-knocks aren't dissimilar. Just because you heard on facebook that some cop somewhere kicked somebody's door in and got the address wrong doesn't mean that the facts were there or that the situation was as presented to the media. Has this situation in Ferguson taught you nothing?? Hell the story changed 6 different times on national news in as many days.

You listed 2 occasions where -Federal- law enforcement screwed up. (Never mind that you neglected to mention that multiple teams from Local law enforcmenet agencies refused to be present given the substituted rules of engagement.)

Should I begin listing the dozens of occasions where civilian life was being actively taken and the police needed some of the aforementioned equipment to capably respond?

The jury you speak of only comes into play after a grand jury indicts, the grand jury gets all its info ONLY from the DA. Justice is not served when the blue wall covers for others who broke the law (police unions are a great example) because it would be an embarrassment to the force or administration. Yes, plenty of good men refused to act during the Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents but what about those who did murder those people - where they ever tried?

The courts/administations have a vested interest in keeping good relations with law enforcement, scratch my back I scratch yours thing. It's human nature and I find it hard to believe that the justice system is immune from this sentiment.

 

[Leonidas]

I didn't say anything about this towards you - you inferred it and took it upon yourself. Hell you could have been on the city council for all I knew, until that post.

BS! We've been down this road before. Want me to track it down and quote you? It's your SOP.

 

[ctrues]

Does post #83 unveil the new NOPD uniform for Decadence Festival?

 

[WOLFIE]

And some of the LEOs that are so special that know so much more than us lowly citizens are damned casual about collaterals. Friend those are real previously live people.

A few of you sound like I would IF I said after the next death of a swatter, 'meh, play military games, suffer military consequences. Tough sh1t, Sparky.'

I would to respond to one thing you said which is police are casual about collaterals.
This is not true. Police Officers are people to and many, many of us are patriots. We are not psychopathes or socialpathes. I care about people in general. I feel good when I arrest someone for commiting a crime. I appreciate people who don't commit crimes, work, and pay taxes and I appreciate them more and more the longer I work in law enforcement. The people who hurt others by committing a crime are people who are hurting this country. This is a simple statement but please consider it at a deeper level than the context of this post. A trauma plate worn by a police officer does not hurt anyone. Sometimes, we pay for protective gear ourselves. I take my job seriously and want to do a good job. If I caused an innocent to be hurt due to an accident (let us say I tripped and fell and this led to the serious injury), I would feel responsible and I would feel sick.

 

[Cochise]

... I myself have applied to be a park ranger (which to my knowledge is a certified LEO) and hope to become a wildlife agent sometime down the road. The reserve deputy program interests me as well, just so I can get a firsthand knowledge of how the police operate, however my first priority right now is getting a paying job.
My biggest personal reservation in becoming a police officer is that I don't believe in victimless crimes. I refuse to take someone to jail for simply having a bag of weed or for selling raw milk.

You and I are very like minded.