Ask Advantage Group

[JNieman]

Why not iron sights vs optic at a minimum for defensive purposes? It really pisses me off seeing guys slap on optics and no iron sights just in case. I'd say iron sights/light/sling or else it'd be like putting a laser on top of a revolver.

Lots of people just have rifles to play with them and they'll never have one in an emergency situation. When you keep it locked up and unloaded 99% of the time, you have time to check batteries and wipe off glass, or send it off for warranty service. A lot of people go to classes just for fun or to augment USPSA/IPSC/IDPA practice. There's very little "OH ****" to that, where seconds matter in the way they do to police/military, and people who plan for how to use their rifle for defensive purposes.

I think "OWLS" assumes irons already exist as a minimum. (correct me if I'm wrong in my interjection) I think optics is a "requirement" because they're such a "force multiplier" that it becomes a no brainer. Shooting in compromised positions, or less-weak-side becomes a lot easier with a red dot.

 

[doc ace]

Lots of people just have rifles to play with them and they'll never have one in an emergency situation. When you keep it locked up and unloaded 99% of the time, you have time to check batteries and wipe off glass, or send it off for warranty service. A lot of people go to classes just for fun or to augment USPSA/IPSC/IDPA practice. There's very little "OH ****" to that, where seconds matter in the way they do to police/military, and people who plan for how to use their rifle for defensive purposes.

But shouldn't you crawl before you walk, walk before you run? Maintain proficiency with your equipment on the most basic levels ie field strip and cleaning, and the basic fundamentals of shooting through iron sights, before just slapping on optics and stowing it away in the safe? I don't think anyone's logic could convince me otherwise. Does a newly licensed individual hop into a Shelby GT 500 or a Chevrolet Malibu first?

 

[SpeedRacer]

Why not iron sights vs optic at a minimum for defensive purposes? It really pisses me off seeing guys slap on optics and no iron sights just in case. I'd say iron sights/light/sling or else it'd be like putting a laser on top of a revolver.

When he asked about add-ons/enhancements were recommended I was assuming iron sights are already on the rifle. I have backup irons on all my rifles.

 

[SpeedRacer]

But shouldn't you crawl before you walk, walk before you run? Maintain proficiency with your equipment on the most basic levels ie field strip and cleaning, and the basic fundamentals of shooting through iron sights, before just slapping on optics and stowing it away in the safe? I don't think anyone's logic could convince me otherwise. Does a newly licensed individual hop into a Shelby GT 500 or a Chevrolet Malibu first?

Quality optics have all but rendered iron sights obsolete. A better analogy would be should you learn to drive a stick shift before you drive an auto trans. For me personally the answer is yes, but I think we are at a time (or damn close) where having and knowing how to use iron sights is a almost thing of the past.

 

[Hitman]

Also in the context of (within the home), at that distance,
no one's aiming down the iron sights to get a clear front sight post before engaging an intruder.

 

[doc ace]

Also in the context of (within the home), at that distance,
no one's aiming down the iron sights to get a clear front sight post before engaging an intruder.

Nor are they looking down an ACOG either... They can absolutely use that FSP to engage targets with in CQB just like the little tit on the front of an ACOG, I know you know this already Marine!

 

[doc ace]

Quality optics have all but rendered iron sights obsolete. A better analogy would be should you learn to drive a stick shift before you drive an auto trans. For me personally the answer is yes, but I think we are at a time (or damn close) where having and knowing how to use iron sights is a almost thing of the past.

I don't understand how a statement could say quality optics are making iron sights obsolete. The fundamentals of every basic training you go to ensure basic rifle marksmanship begins with iron sights, and in the worst scenarios, ends with them. If that were the case, every pistol would have an atom mount and no one would be aiming down their iron sights at an intruder on their (insert favorite pistol here)

Batteries fail, optics smear, glass cracks, and hell most affordable optics aren't even built well enough to maintain a zero, look at Nate's example with the bugs the Spectre has and that's a /quality/ optic some may say based on the price tag...

 

[Hitman]

Nor are they looking down an ACOG either... They can absolutely use that FSP to engage targets with in CQB just like the little tit on the front of an ACOG, I know you know this already Marine!

It's Dark dude, there is no Front Sight Post. But there could be a Holosight?

Anyway not to be rude but this is a Sponsor Thread so we can talk about all the other junk somewhere else.

Know what I mean?

Start a thread in Rifles.

 

[SpeedRacer]

I don't understand how a statement could say quality optics are making iron sights obsolete. The fundamentals of every basic training you go to ensure basic rifle marksmanship begins with iron sights, and in the worst scenarios, ends with them. If that were the case, every pistol would have an atom mount and no one would be aiming down their iron sights at an intruder on their (insert favorite pistol here)

Batteries fail, optics smear, glass cracks, and hell most affordable optics aren't even built well enough to maintain a zero, look at Nate's example with the bugs the Spectre has and that's a /quality/ optic some may say based on the price tag...

Marksmanship is aiming at a target and making bullets go where you aim them. Whether you do that while aligning two sights or looking through a red dot is irrelevant IMO. No optic will make up for bad fundamentals, if your trigger control sucks you'll still miss. Like I mentioned, I think a lot of it is just nostalgia at this point. That's how you were taught to shoot, so that's how you think you should learn to shoot.

I agree with everything else. That's why I said optics are "almost" there. Yes they are still electronic and electronics can fail. And that's exactly why I have backup irons. That doesn't mean I don't think any defensive/combat rifle should be equipped with an optic if budget allows.

Irons are still prevalent on pistols because that optic technology is far behind rifles. However every time a better, smaller optic comes out you see more and more handguns equipped with them. In 5-10 years red dot equipped handguns will be much more common.

 

[goteron]

Scope on top is a LP MK6.

I agree with OWLS.

Optic - Aimpoint or New EOTech or Quality Variable (T-1, H1, M4, PRO, XPS or EXPS, Z6i, MK6)
Sling - VTAC Unpadded
Light - Quality Surefire Weapon Light - Scout, Fury, X300

Some notes on the X300. It is a pistol light, so it is rated for weapon use but has some drawbacks being used on a long gun. 1. It has no disable switch (Unless using the XT07), so its prone to white light AD or being turned on in a bag. Switch ology is not as good as a push-button. 2. The mounting rails are plastic, so if hit hard enough, they may break (Which can be partially mitigated by being used directly in front of a BUIS or similar like Speedracer has)

I have switched to them for various reasons, and in the limited amount of time playing with them, I like them. I will likely build aluminum rails for mine and come up with a solution to the disable switch problem... The Fury is a great choice as well. The scout's have an awesome mounting interface and now the mini-scout has a 250lm head, so that's a pretty wicked little light.

I like the BAD Lever not for mag changes, but for locking the bolt to the rear during malfunction clearance. You can keep your primary hand on fire control while you cycle the action with support hand. Otherwise you need to swap hands around. DO NOT USE IT until you have a good understanding of running a gun without it. It will cause malfunctions on some guns, and if it even caused 1 on mine, I would drop it.

I currently have a 2MOA T-1 on my 12.5" gun with a 3x Mag, but am contemplating replacing them with another Z6i.

This is my 12.5"

As Nate would say, a lot of controls.

For a good solid hard use gun, I would go.

Quality Forged Upper and Lower - DD, BCM, Legion, Mega, etc
Quality Stock - Magpul, B5, VLTOR
Quality LPK, BCG, and Trigger - DD
14.5 or 16.1" LW Quality Barrel with Flash Hider - 1/7 Hammer Forged CL or Melonited Lightweight - DD, BCM, Legion
Troy Alpha 11 or 13" Rail
Quality Optic - Aimpoint, XPS or EXPS Eotech, Variable
VTAC Sling - With Quality Sling Mounts
Quality Light - Surefire Scout, Fury, or X300U
VFG - Magpul RVG, or MVG
Quality Mags - Lancer, PMAG, Good GI
Good BUIS

Factory Assembled (At least to the Barrel Nut on Upper)
Put a few thousand rounds through it to verify function and reliability - Lube Often.

 

[Hitman]

Nice. Now I have a good root list of things to look into.

 

[goteron]

every pistol would have an atom mount

I can only hope. I bet in 10 years, nearly every pistol will have an RDS, maybe even sooner, its such a huge advantage.

Optics - I agree you should always have a Zeroed BUIS, which a lot of people with Optics don't even have.

Optics are a HUGE leap over irons, in speed, accuracy, repeatability, shootability, and nearly every other facet of shooting.

T-1's have a 50,000 battery life in setting 7, and if changed every year, you should never have a problem. Darryl from AP has an Aimpoint M4 he has thrown a few hundred times on concrete, and its still going strong, they are built to last.

Optics are also easier for new shooters to learn, so they are more confident and encouraged to shoot with them.

Irons are just as susceptible to breakage and zero-wandering due to impact as optics are, maybe even more-so. Especially front sights on FF tubes.

That being said, no reason not to have a backup when its so cheap, light, and small.

 

[3fifty7]

Damn it y'all got me itchin for another rifle!

What's the good-bad-ugly on a Ace Socom long adjustable stock?

 

[bigtattoo79]

The only thing keeping me out the carbine classes is everyone telling me I need optics. Would love to see a iron sight class!!!!

 

[SpeedRacer]

The only thing keeping me out the carbine classes is everyone telling me I need optics. Would love to see a iron sight class!!!!

I don't know what would be different about an iron site class. We have had several people take the courses with irons for whatever reason. They did just fine, although every one of them went straight home to order an optic.

 

[JNieman]

The only thing keeping me out the carbine classes is everyone telling me I need optics. Would love to see a iron sight class!!!!

An iron sights class is any class you bring a rifle to that has irons.

I inadvertently ran one day of a carbine class with irons.

I gave back the free vortex Sparc after that.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

We also have loaner optics.

 

[Dishonored]

This is my 12.5"

.

Man is that flashlight mount looks good!
Looks like it sits a tad lower than normal.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

If people keep making excuses to not come
To classes I'm gonna start setting fires.

 

[bigtattoo79]

I don't know what would be different about an iron site class. We have had several people take the courses with irons for whatever reason. They did just fine, although every one of them went straight home to order an optic.

I can tell you what would be different after the iron sight class no one would go home and order an optic...
JK I know what your saying

We also have loaner optics.

I must say you offered to loan me everything I needed but I just feel it would be better to train with a gun and sight system that I own and would use if needed.
However I can't thank you enough for your offers!!